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Speed or FF

the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior MemberPosts: 625Registered Users
skirmish builds have for them speed and friendly fire, i put it to all of you that if skirmish builds have friendly fire on their side to stop rushes they shouldn't have speed that allows them to out run any melee unit, i understand people will say there are classes of melee, but i also put it to you, that i am talking about shogi, spear levy and kyoto police to have the ability to out run line inf, and that katana and yari kachi will have a slight increase but not enough to out run line inf.
skirmish builds do have the ability to make a double backed line, which creates the factor of the friendly fire issue
and peopel saying that it's the only way to counter rush builds that is completely wrong, it is also been been stated the morale effect it has on friendly units, well that is clearly not apparent, if a gun unit is firing into the back of the friendly units quite clearly you will not be able to fire and hit the enemy units, so thus the the friendly units should be taking far more casualties then the enemy unit would.

i think i didn't put enough in here, but i would like for skirmish build users to finally understand you have a choice, to have the right to have friendly fire or the right to have speed, not both, at the moment gun builds even units that are carrying far more stuff and is weighed down more, can out run units wearing cloth and carrying a sword,
it is the same for puting units in skirmish mode it increases the speed, so clearly it is not balanced
i am not saying that swords/ rushes should be able to steam roll anyone, they can if they want to, i am saying at the moment, skirmish builds have to of the biggest advantages this game has to offer, and one advantage has to be for them and another for rush builds,
speed or FF
Fear God, Honor King
Post edited by the bourgeoisie on

Comments

  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I think this is pointless. I know for a fact that being under ff gives a morale penalty of -6. They still have speed, so the decision you're asking for has already been made.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Most skirmishers will be running with the gun general, whereas melee rushers will have either the command or melee gens, both of which give you speed upgrades - and in the case of the melee gen a 50% speed boost ability. Most rush builds are also likely to have more cav than a skirmish build will, so that goes a long way towards catching up with most skirmish armies that you'll see out there.

    I'd say that you should be careful before you go tinkering with the rush/skirmish balance at the moment because for now it si very fine indeed. Rush builds aready have it much easier than what they did in s2, as skirmish armies only have very weak support units and are easy to box up and crush, especially on heavy terrain maps. My rush build is actually slightly more successful than my skirmish build at the moment.
    RedStag
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    i am saying, rush builds will in time run out of cav,playing reserved or not, what is left from the cav battle will end up dying, so i am aiming at the swords chasing the guns, i know their is a speed increase for bushido gen and for command tree
    but i am saying with speed, even with your unit having a point in the speed tree they do seem to never be able to catch up to the line inf,
    yeah it's pretty easy for rushers but depends what they bring, because a gun army with super high numbers can destory rush armies on even a terrainy map
    but the point of this thread was, skirmish builds have FF on their side, and they also can out run melee units, shogi, spear, and kyoto, the units wearing basically nothing, yeah so are line inf units, but i am sure a rifle will be more heavy then a sword, and so would the uniform their wear, there are tons of factors you can look at that should make line inf speed slower the most of the melee units.
    and with friendly fire well that is a topic still going but it as i do find effect a rush army far more then a gun army even though your shooting in the back of your troops
    Fear God, Honor King
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    You can't shoot through your own men without line of sight and any of your own units involved with the units being fired at will get a -6 morale penalty. It didn't seem to come through in my first post.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited April 2012
    Put in a realistic friendly fire effect, and an awful lot of people who think they are good at the game will a. kick up a huge stink (as happened with the dev cam); and b. ultimately leave if it stays.

    One annoying side effect, one good side effect.

    As for 'rushing', meh...yet another result of 'balancing'.
    Yes, it's me.

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  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Put in a realistic friendly fire effect, and an awful lot of people who think they are good at the game will a. kick up a huge stink (as happened with the dev cam); and b. ultimately leave if it stays.

    One annoying side effect, one good side effect.

    This made me chuckle. It would be a step up to include realistic ff instead of some arbitrary morale penalty, although the -6 morale do the job most of the time.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    It would be a step backward - rush builds would rule the scene and noone would be using skirmish builds, despite the fact that its supposed to be the late 1800s.
    RedStag
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    It would be a step backward - rush builds would rule the scene and noone would be using skirmish builds, despite the fact that its supposed to be the late 1800s.

    If CA were to invest the time and effort and make decent ff work, they could easily manage to balance its effect in the process I believe.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Were you around when they had the -20 modifier a few months back in s2? That thing was a total failure- completely wrecked the game balance and made rush builds the only viable army for many months. You'll only have the same thing happen again if they mess about with friendly fire again. Units were routing if they took a single bullet; not just a full volley - individual shots were enough rout an entire unit - often times 2-3 misplaced bullets could rout several units, especially if they were engaged. There was nothing advanced about the state of the gameplay at that stage in s2, it was horrible.

    Its really not that hard to get a rush build to work well in this game. It doesn't need to be buffed to the point where it goes from being an equal challenge to run a rush or skirmish to it being an obvious choice in favour of an army type that only utilises a fraction of the available units.
    RedStag
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,452Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    The balance between skirmish and melee builds is excellent at the moment. Melee builds when played well are very hard to stop, but they require the player to know what they are doing. I have a friend who has only lost one out of a hundred battles or so with his melee rush, so any further boosts would mean that we will be seeing just melee armies in FotS.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    well IMO, if any army is going to need a speed buff, its S2 armies.
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    FF does not occour atm. The line of sight prevent it. What CA did in past with matchlocks give a -20 Morale penalty AND switch off line of sight was really ridiculous. No one demands that, and demanded that in past.
    To keep an eye to the "beginners" just a higher morale penalty is nessesary. So the use of Line Infspammy is still handsome.
    To keep an eye to the skilled and expirienced players the need to have line of sight can be turned off.

    What can we destroy next?
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • Mr.CrackMr.Crack Member Posts: 44Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    English, as a language.
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,452Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    FF does occur and it does cause considerable losses and morale penalties.
  • steven0935steven0935 Senior Member Posts: 135Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    FF may give morale penaties when firing behind their own troops but they still do more damage to the player against them as their bullets magicly make their way through so even when they are shooting behind their own troops when there is no terrain elevation at all the player who shoots the backs of his men has an advantage
    History is shaped by war
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    @Mr Crack
    Wir können uns auch auf Deutsch unterhalten, leider wird das dem Entwickler und den Moderatoren missfallen.

    @Aggony Duck
    The FF and the morale penalty is without weight in combat. To shoot with 100% efficiency into hand to hand combat is just ridiculous. Just another CAP to support camping.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Units don't shoot that much when their LOS is obstructed by a friendly unit and the penalty is already -6. I really don't see meat-shielding being such a major feature of battles either that there is any need for any kind of alteration to friendly fire either.

    If you are going to keep demanding changes to the FF system, what do you plan to do to nerf rush builds in order to compensate for the kind of friendly fire penalties that you're asking for? If you're going to increase the effect of FF then you really should be willing to take reductions in melee unit speed and further morale reductions to give ranged units a fair chance of taking down a rush build.
    RedStag
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I was around when the -20 morale thing was applied and I hated it just as much as you did. I wasn't suggesting that the system we have right now isn't working, it's clearly the best we've seen so far in this game, but I thought it might be possible to make it even better if time was invested. It doesn't have to be top priority, the bugs and first shots are clearly more problematic.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    you guys are only seeing the FF side of the argument i put out,
    skirmish builds can out run melee for heaven sakes, and all honesty makes no sense, yeah rushes are **** hard to stop, but by god, you guys have FF on skirmish builds side, and if not that you can run away faster then melee units (spear levy, shogi, police)
    make sense of that, FF is a problem but to the sense that you guys have both advantages, not even a lvl 5 shogi can catch a azure and has a point in speed, not to mention tosa can run at the speed of light, and imp/ sho inf carrying more **** then melee units as i mentioned run faster, so i put the choice out, in all honesty, you can fire into your own lines and get more kills of the enemy then of your own men, you can kite any rush builds if their cav is gone, which will end up happening, depending on the player, you do have a supposed morale penalty that i am yet to ever see in effect, because if that was the case, almost ever unit would rout, which is not the case.
    Fear God, Honor King
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