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Nurgle - A comprehensive look at it's "pain points" and suggestions on possible solutions.

MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
Hi,

I have posted frequently on the Discord regarding some of these pain points but with the Discord feedback section now discontinued, I have decided to make a proper forum post looking into the issue at depth for a single player only perspective on Nurgle in general, and a bit on Kugath (who literally is the saving grace of the faction that would not function partially without him).

As a bit of background, I have played Total War since Medieval 1 where I was a young child freshly moved out of London to Kent, spamming peasant stacks everywhere on the easiest difficulty as Egypt or HRE and being utterly confused why I would be losing some battles of 40v10. Since then, I have been a Legendary or VH/VH difficulty player, doing all the campaigns until their natural streamroll lull, pouring in over 3000 hours into WH2, 1000 into WH1 and well into the 10's of thousands of hours across Total War titles.

To give a fair representation to the faction, I will only be using Normal campaign difficulty modifiers. We shouldn't base discussion on a minority factor that may be the cause of its own issues. I will follow this initial part of the post with more, but this should be a nice starting point. So, let's get started!

Nurgle Economy

Part 1 - Unit Cost

Summary: Nurglings are the only cost effective unit, whilst the rest of nurgles roster costs the same or more than their competing factions equivalents for far worse units.

This is the big one, and thus the one I wanted to start with first! It's turn 32, I have 3 full provinces, 1 fully developed, 1 at 4/2/2 and the other at 3/1/1. Public Order isn't an issue, and my income is sitting at 4968 with the one Kugath army. That army is identical to its start but with 2 Plagueridden (one being Death for obvious reasons), and filled otherwise with Nurglings.

This costs 3025 per turn. BUT that is due to a 25% reduction by Kugath, bringing them from 88 to 66. That is 22x10, 220 extra upkeep we should add. So my income is actually 4748 with an army upkeep of 3245, with what in all honesty is almost effective as a skele boi spam army (in many ways, less so if not for Kugath himself buffing them in his army).

These can be recruited at free using the Auxiliary + Kugath's faction bonuses. These allow Nurglings to be your pop-up defensive deterrent, as what I believe they're intended to be. The issue is, this is a Kugath only thing. Unless future factions take his affects and add onto them, this won't be how Nurgle functions. So, for a fair and proper look, we need to remove Kugath's bonuses like I did earlier for the economy summary, in each situation.

So, first we have the insanely high recruitment costs. Plaguebearers sitting at 1125, 189, after the first recruitment reduction technology - compared to 0 recruitment cost and 70 upkeep for nurglings with Kugath bonuses, or at sub 200 recruitment without. It is immediately no longer viable to even recruit tier 2 units. Even just replacing the Nurglings in 1 army at this stage with tier 2 infantry, will bankrupt my campaign. This may seem reasonable when we think of Pink Horrors being tier 2. But are Pink Horrors equal to plaguebearers in effectiveness? No. Even if you gave these guys twice the melee stats, their speed and vulnerability will always make them worst for tier. This is not an acceptable cost for their use.

For reference, a pink horror costs 300 less, for 10 more in upkeep. So a regular plaguebearer is similar to cost to an Exalted Pink Horror. A tier 3 unit that would decimate it.

But then, let's look why we're struggling for economy to pay for these troops!

Part 2 - Nurgle GDP, a case study in third world economics.

Summary: Nurgle low income generation, with no modifiers.

Whilst yes, Nurgles buildings do not require further upgrades to develop, this is a double edge sword and actually doesn't just generate economic issues, but also can trap new or average level players into deficits due to the ebb and flows of their revenue. That 4748 income I mentioned earlier? That is with a carefully laid out development to ensure all my buildings are at their peak at the same time (I used Cheat Engine to do this, as it is practically impossible to do manually otherwise). In reality, my income was on average otherwise in normal play, up to a full 1068 lower at some parts of the ebb. Being actually on average 3680. That is an average income of 1k per province. So, what is the full economic potential of these 3 provinces? Well, let's find out!

Let's breakdown the cost of getting these 3 provinces fully developed from where they are and what income we can expect to see from that (in maximum values, not real values that the player will see - we have to give A LOT of handicaps here). This does mean however building the overall useless fly unit tree, being it is the highest income generator for the faction.

So, let's take a nearby province that isn't too exceptional (doesn't sport 2 ports for example like in Kugath's home province). Path to the East - it has 4 regions, only 1 trade resource, and no unique chains. Perfect! A totally reasonable province that would generally produce 3k income depending on your faction elsewhere (would reach higher, but as a Ogre settlement province you are limited to only 3 slots and no capital city province). What does Nurgle get?

So, the cost to build 1 slot then start upgrading to tier 2 is 25,380. The same process for 1 more slot and tier 3 upgrade is 39,560 (Yup, we've increase the cost 14,000 or over 50%), with the final building slots being basic infrastructure at 9,600.

That is a sum total of 74,540 to fully develop a ogre region. I allowed for 1 defensive building to stop the cancer that is portals, and focused on income rather than practicality (where in honesty, you're better off spamming nurgling chains for basic settlements due to garrisons to reduce overall expenditure on armies).

Our total? 3892 per turn. So we're looking at over 20 turns to see return which isn't bad, especially with unit generation and hero cap increase, especially for an ogre province!... right? Remember this is max values. Let's compare this max unrealistic and hyper inflated value, to the Tzeench income of the same province.

3522, for half the construction cost. That is 300~ lower than the MAXIMUM value of Nurgle, that is consistent value.

Now, this would make Nurgle appear still even at maximum value, the overall loser. It is 200 extra income per turn, for an extra 30,000~ investment, and generates 2 less heroes and less overall faction resources as well.

Let's make that gap wider - let's introduce the minimum and average values.

Maximum: 3892
Minimum:1597
Average: 2745 (rounded up).


That makes Nurgle 800~ on average poorer, than the birds who are a weaker economic faction in WH3. And potentially at the lowest, less than half their economy. For double the construction cost. And far more expensive recruitment and armies...

Comments

  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    Part 2

    So, here I am back for the first follow-up. Being a teacher is tiresome work so sadly it has been a few days since I first posted this.

    So far I have established the income and recruitment/upkeep cost issue (no solutions yet).

    The next issue in the economy problem is the unique mechanic, Infections. I will be laying out the anorexic issue within its generation as well as issues with the mechanic itself (particularly with attrition towards the AI).

    Infections generation

    3 per minor, 6 per major. Which means a fully developed province at 4 regions, generates 15. A singular plague that is fully made with 3 symptoms costs 150 on a non-Kugath army, or 200 for a priest. So 10 turns for an army plague with a 3 turn duration, or a plague priest. Why is this important? Because it encourages degenerate play due to this and another issue. Initially you'll be starved for infections, unable to support viably full symptom plagues for the first 50 or so turns, as at 6 provinces you still will not be able to support a plague per turn under that circumstance, other than 2. This makes a faction that is themed around turtling, forced to be aggressive to generate infections for the early-mid game via battles.

    The way to make the most of your infections, and to make it useful to engage with this mechanic for armies (not settlement growth)? Continually transfer 1-2 units between armies until the plague spreads. This then engages the player to conduct degenerate play due to a badly balanced system.

    Plagues

    Simply put in this regard - they're weak. Painfully weak. More like a mildly annoying flu at worst. 1 plague is essentially redundant in the first row, in the second you have 1 that doesn't work, 2 that don't matter to the AI when infected, and a third that is a trap due to the spread cap issue. The entire 3rd row is pointless -- 10% speed? For units that are already 30-40% faster than Nurgle? So, you'll still be unable to catch them - it's a pointlessly weak amount. Likewise, attrition doesn't work on the AI. Row 4 is the only really useful one that suffers heavily from the spread cap, whilst the final row is pointless due to how nurgle's damage is done. It really is a shame, but beyond initial growth and base plague with no additional symptoms, there is no reason basically to use or engage with the mechanic.

    Spread cap

    Spread capacity, for those who don't know, is 4. A singular plague can only be spread 4 times - so no chain reaction across your empire of a plague rapidly spreading through Nurgle lands into say, Cathay. This makes the income per spread worth only 600 in total potential as it can only spread 4 times for 150 each. Likewise for infection generation, with it being capped at 40 at maximum potential. Which would give you a net gain of 60 (160 -100 cost). So you'd have to do it twice to just gain enough to use a third plague.

    Limited use (2 per turn)

    This is another issue with how the plague mechanic engages with its player. It doesn't let you, essentially. You are limited by 2 generations a turn - 1 priest, 1 regular spread. Which means from mid-game on, you are generating 2 each turn but never can have every region within your domain infected, other than using them offensively (or vice versa). So the player essentially, once realising most plagues are useless, and that they are limited in spreads, will opt to just not bother by the end.

    Attrition (or lack thereof)

    The most annoying of these issues for me personally. Attrition is a player only mechanic. The AI have a resistance to attrition to prevent them from passively killing themselves off - This was what made the attrition building chain for vampires utterly worthless. As no matter how much you increased, it would be capped at 3-4% of health per turn. I have tested this to the extreme, with additional attrition sources not increasing attrition damage to AI on normal. I isolated an ogre army in Nurgle territory for attrition, made them starve (2nd source), no settlements (3rd source), and a plague with double attrition modifiers (4th and 5th). The sum damage? 120 Knoblars down to 113. They lost 7. I then used Cheat Engine and vs multiplayer to manufacture the same scenario for myself - It 1 shot the army by the 3rd source.

    After extensive testing, siege attrition does not actually work so it is a bugged plague effect.

    This makes the entirety of attrition and plagues worthless of Nurgle.

    So in summary

    Plague debuffs are worthless, plague buffs are worthless, attrition only affects the player so that's worthless. Plagues are either too expensive for half the game, or you can't make enough in the other half - either way you don't bother most of the time.
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    Solutions for these issues

    The economy

    So, there is effectively one of two methods here to bring about the necessary change to fix the turtle lord's economy. You either increase income, or reduce expenditure. In my opinion, the most thematic of these two would be the latter. Reducing recruitment and building costs, whilst introducing Nurglings as upkeep and recruitment free.

    This generates the Cr4p stacking of the vampire counts, which is the thematic style nurgle should aim for, whilst also suiting their turtle style. Likewise it would allow Nurgle to have more cash in pocket, without actually changing the raw income values. It improves the economy and the playstyle and theme of the faction.

    Rather than buildings costing the same as all three upgrade tiers combined as just an upfront cost (this is purely negative, especially with the cycling income). Have the cost be fixed at the mid tier, roughly a 30% reduction. Tie this in with 15-20% unit recruitment cost reduction, and nurglings just being free spawn no upkeep units (as described in lore).

    What would the playstyle be after? You would expand, turtle and even potentially disband nurgling stacks because of how quickly you can generate more. Increasing income through this disband/recruit cycle. An ebb and flow of armies as well as economy.

    Plagues

    The effects need to do something essentially here. Plague's need to have their 4 spread capacity removed as well. Nurgle lands should be plague ridden, so should his armies. Not 2 mild flu's per turn. I will suggest and name changes to plagues but I will include with and without this limit cap removed.

    Violent Spasms - -1 Turn to Cycle times (not just 1 chain). Plague spread chance +50% (remove if the plague spread limit is removed as I recommend)

    Paraoxysm - First, it needs to be applied to the AI - it currently does not impact their recruitment, especially on higher difficulties. Secondly keep -2 capacity but add a +1 for recruitment.

    Highly Contagious - Change to increase plague spread capacity or the range of spreading (if capacity of spreading is removed as recommended, change instead reduce to +10%. Spread chance needs to be reduced to account for far longer plagues and spreading).

    Pestilence - Does not work. Step 1 - make it work as attrition under siege is already at baseline cap, so increasing it is irrelevant. The AI loses 4-5% per turn from being besieged, but the AI can only take that amount. So you can't actually increase it. Otherwise, keep it as is. If working, it would be a welcome and useful tool.

    Inflamed Glands - Defensive Supplies starting amount is "ok". Instead have this stop supply generation or slow it. So the initial towers etc. are all that remain. Nurgle is a slow blob faction, and the towers deal 90% of the damage received (as opposed to 50%). I would recommend a slow so as to not be too punishing and unfun for the player when victim of the plague - -50% supply generation.

    Gut Rot - Simple solution, make this -40 Ammo. Not -40% during siege.

    Pustulant - Make +5.

    I will continue the list of plague changes later today :)
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,667
    Maybe giving the plagues a generational limit would be a better idea. So patient zero is gen1 and everything that gets infected is the generation of the thing that infects them +1. Then you could say that gen3 isn't contagious anymore.
    The result would be no more hard cap for spread, but no more getting infected through a carrier that got it from anyone but patient zero (nurgle army/town/cultist performing the infection).
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25

    Maybe giving the plagues a generational limit would be a better idea. So patient zero is gen1 and everything that gets infected is the generation of the thing that infects them +1. Then you could say that gen3 isn't contagious anymore.
    The result would be no more hard cap for spread, but no more getting infected through a carrier that got it from anyone but patient zero (nurgle army/town/cultist performing the infection).

    Isn't that just a tier system to turn into a limit though?

    Correct me if I'm wrong of course! But if say patient zero infects all equally, but by 3 they no longer spread - wouldn't all the plagues die out in the end again once they hit tier 3 and go through their timer? So your system (in my mind) just sounds like a system of identifying how close they are from dying out/reaching capacity, rather than dying out due to not being re-infected before duration ends.

    The other issue I see with it is a spread limit is easy for CA to change and more realistic for it (given it is editing a number). It doesn't require whole new systems and UI elements.
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    "the tiered system suggested would mean your patient 0 can keep infecting
    yes the 3d would be the end of that spreading but you can keep going deeper into their lands and make a second line that could spread again till the third generation
    you need somekind of limit else the game breaks and thats honestly not a bad idea to limit it
    it makes it so that patient 0 can spread forever, your nurgle army keeps spreading it, but it wont cover the world
    it would need some actual input, wich is good
    input as a requirement means you need to think more about how its done instead of just letting them loose into the world and being fine"


    This was added via Steam, so I wanted to include it here. My response was;


    "Ah, so the initial victim remains "patient 0" essentially forever? I quite like that. Though I'd prefer it be limited to Nurgle owned settlements than armies. Otherwise we get 10 1 man stacks running around (though I love the idea of naming these guys Georgie Porgie and having them chase Katarin around).

    My question for that is, will the patient 0 have a duration? How would that aspect work? Otherwise, with that little extra explanation I love it! :)"


    Let's keep the convo going guys :smile:
  • AshreonAshreon Registered Users Posts: 10
    Unit Cost:
    1. Nurgle get to recruit his units instantenously and from anywhere, but hostile territory on top of this he has access to roughly 50% replenishment so he can easily replace an army on the go whereas everyone else must sit in their own territory to recruit or rely on expensive and long global recruitment. To let him recruit cheaper would be a further advantage he simply don't need.
    2. Nurgle is by far the cheapest faction when it comes to building, yes, they are expensive right out the gate, but that's it. There's no additional cost to it and they'll just do their thing letting you get T3 and T5 units for virtually no investment. I can guarantee you that Tzeentch has a much higher cost than Nurgle could ever hope to have.
    3. Unlike Tzeentch, Nurgle gets a whooping 250% sack/loot plague - it is by far one of the strongest plagues in the game. If you play right, you'll be swimming in hundreds of thousands of gold fairly early on and no way to spend them. Heck, he is build to play with negative income for a large part of his campaign, just like Khorne is.

    Plagues:
    1. Buildings is not your main way to get infections. You can easily get 200+ Infections per defeated army/city. You are not including this in your analysis.
    2. Most units are in fact not much faster than Nurgle. In fact most of Nurgle's unit (aside from Plaguebearers) is en par with most other units, slightly slower, but not 30-40%. I don't know where you get such numbers.. Very little infantry runs around at 40-50+, most sits around 30-36 and since Nurgle puts poison on them, they're now 20% slower and if your army is 10% faster those pesky infantry ain't escaping. Many of Nurgle's plagues do in fact give you a decisive advantage if you utilize them properly (not that it'll ever beat 250% sacking or 35% replenishment tho)
    3. This is incorrect. Spread cap is not 4. Spread cap PER plague PER turn is 4. Plagues are able to jump 1000 times. Nor are you capped on how much Infections you can get from Spread.
    4. This is incorrect. You can spread 1 plague to an army, make 1 plague cultist and infect 1 city in your own region.
    5. This is partially incorrect. Nurgle Plagues are not affected by difficulty, just like Dragon Emperor's Wrath is not affected by difficulty. Nurgle just don't get more than 5% attrition damage rounded down. Nor has attrition ever stacked. So, eh?

    Economy:
    1. Nurgle is actually not a turtle faction, playing him as a turtle faction is playing him decisively wrong. He is an aggressive faction utilizing insane replenishment plagues and sacking plagues to gain insane amount of gold per turn whilst also being able to recover in 1 turn, max 2. Playing him as a turtle faction is just. No. You can, in fact, get a nurgle doomstack insanely early consisting of Plaguebearers, Followers of Nurgle, Plagueridden (2-3), a cultist and a good deal of Soulgrinders. It's not difficult nor is it difficult to maintain 10+ of such armies.

    Plagues (again):

    See, I generally agree that symptoms overall are fairly useless once you get access to sacking and replenishment plague (which you ought to have no later than turn 40 for both), because those are the plagues you'll be using and nothing else really. Rather than having recipes being a set in stone plague, I think it would, thematically be more appropriate that the current recipes are changed so that they're an ultimate symptom which ADDS the effects (duration, special symptoms, spread chance) to the plague you are concocting on top of the 3 regular symptoms. This let's us tailor plagues.
    Going to fight Khorne? Well. -% Armor to Khorne, +% weapon damage to you, +% speed to you on top of getting your ultimate symptoms
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,667
    Murrayman said:

    "the tiered system suggested would mean your patient 0 can keep infecting
    yes the 3d would be the end of that spreading but you can keep going deeper into their lands and make a second line that could spread again till the third generation
    you need somekind of limit else the game breaks and thats honestly not a bad idea to limit it
    it makes it so that patient 0 can spread forever, your nurgle army keeps spreading it, but it wont cover the world
    it would need some actual input, wich is good
    input as a requirement means you need to think more about how its done instead of just letting them loose into the world and being fine"


    This was added via Steam, so I wanted to include it here. My response was;


    "Ah, so the initial victim remains "patient 0" essentially forever? I quite like that. Though I'd prefer it be limited to Nurgle owned settlements than armies. Otherwise we get 10 1 man stacks running around (though I love the idea of naming these guys Georgie Porgie and having them chase Katarin around).

    My question for that is, will the patient 0 have a duration? How would that aspect work? Otherwise, with that little extra explanation I love it! :)"


    Let's keep the convo going guys :smile:

    Ofc patient zero wouldn't be able to spread forever, as the plague time is over at some point. But yes there wouldn't be a hard limit in how many things 1st and second gen can affect. Also 3 times the plague duration would be the longest time it can exist. (1* for P0 + 1* for second gen +1* for last gen, going by the latest possible infections).
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    Ashreon said:

    Unit Cost:
    1. Nurgle get to recruit his units instantenously and from anywhere, but hostile territory on top of this he has access to roughly 50% replenishment so he can easily replace an army on the go whereas everyone else must sit in their own territory to recruit or rely on expensive and long global recruitment. To let him recruit cheaper would be a further advantage he simply don't need.
    2. Nurgle is by far the cheapest faction when it comes to building, yes, they are expensive right out the gate, but that's it. There's no additional cost to it and they'll just do their thing letting you get T3 and T5 units for virtually no investment. I can guarantee you that Tzeentch has a much higher cost than Nurgle could ever hope to have.
    3. Unlike Tzeentch, Nurgle gets a whooping 250% sack/loot plague - it is by far one of the strongest plagues in the game. If you play right, you'll be swimming in hundreds of thousands of gold fairly early on and no way to spend them. Heck, he is build to play with negative income for a large part of his campaign, just like Khorne is.

    Plagues:
    1. Buildings is not your main way to get infections. You can easily get 200+ Infections per defeated army/city. You are not including this in your analysis.
    2. Most units are in fact not much faster than Nurgle. In fact most of Nurgle's unit (aside from Plaguebearers) is en par with most other units, slightly slower, but not 30-40%. I don't know where you get such numbers.. Very little infantry runs around at 40-50+, most sits around 30-36 and since Nurgle puts poison on them, they're now 20% slower and if your army is 10% faster those pesky infantry ain't escaping. Many of Nurgle's plagues do in fact give you a decisive advantage if you utilize them properly (not that it'll ever beat 250% sacking or 35% replenishment tho)
    3. This is incorrect. Spread cap is not 4. Spread cap PER plague PER turn is 4. Plagues are able to jump 1000 times. Nor are you capped on how much Infections you can get from Spread.
    4. This is incorrect. You can spread 1 plague to an army, make 1 plague cultist and infect 1 city in your own region.
    5. This is partially incorrect. Nurgle Plagues are not affected by difficulty, just like Dragon Emperor's Wrath is not affected by difficulty. Nurgle just don't get more than 5% attrition damage rounded down. Nor has attrition ever stacked. So, eh?

    Economy:
    1. Nurgle is actually not a turtle faction, playing him as a turtle faction is playing him decisively wrong. He is an aggressive faction utilizing insane replenishment plagues and sacking plagues to gain insane amount of gold per turn whilst also being able to recover in 1 turn, max 2. Playing him as a turtle faction is just. No. You can, in fact, get a nurgle doomstack insanely early consisting of Plaguebearers, Followers of Nurgle, Plagueridden (2-3), a cultist and a good deal of Soulgrinders. It's not difficult nor is it difficult to maintain 10+ of such armies.

    Plagues (again):

    See, I generally agree that symptoms overall are fairly useless once you get access to sacking and replenishment plague (which you ought to have no later than turn 40 for both), because those are the plagues you'll be using and nothing else really. Rather than having recipes being a set in stone plague, I think it would, thematically be more appropriate that the current recipes are changed so that they're an ultimate symptom which ADDS the effects (duration, special symptoms, spread chance) to the plague you are concocting on top of the 3 regular symptoms. This let's us tailor plagues.
    Going to fight Khorne? Well. -% Armor to Khorne, +% weapon damage to you, +% speed to you on top of getting your ultimate symptoms

    I base my belief that Nurgle is a turtle, on the lore, faction description, and the multiple marketing campaigns that advertised him as such. I also feel making him play like a poor man's Khorne, doesn't help the faction in anyway.

    It is roughly 12 on average in speed difference. This translates to a 33% speed difference. You're using a spell to debuff enemies to inflict said poison. So, you're skewing your own opinion by saying "well, if you use magic they're not much different". Likewise, the "fast" units in Nurgle, flies and toads, are horrendously bad. I do hope you're trolling or RPing when using them, as otherwise... eek.

    The attrition does stack for the player only. The AI have a hard attrition cap. As mentioned, I tested the reverse for the player, and it literally 1 shot the army. Following the now announced Nurgle plague attrition debuff, it will make plague attrition even more irrelevant. So my argument is to have the plague attrition from nurgle plagues not be subject to that hard AI attrition cap.
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    As a new point - the fact that exalted great unclean ones are significantly weaker than their base form is silly. You lose flight, and one of the 3 plague abilities (the big MVP being the AOE DoT that has no usage cap), to gain Kugath's melee line. That is a big loss in ability, for to become a mortis engine and a big squishy target for the lord sniping crazy AI.

    I also want to add my protest in this thread to the Nurgle Plague attrition damage nerf, though likely players won't notice anyways due to the AI attrition cap already in place. They should be going the opposite way to increase plague attrition inflicted by the player, not making it more of a mild cold.
  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    Lords

    Kugath

    Kugath is a ok lord, except he is actually weaker than a regular Great Unclean One. He has weak missile damage, low accuracy, low area of effect to these attacks, down time in melee due to slow attack rate and suffers from severe shuffling syndrome due to his model struggling to line itself up to attack any target. His greatest asset is being a large pincushion mortis engine. Likewise, nearly all his benefits are lord's army only, which is a shame because the character is themed around quite the opposite of being a straight up army commander. He is effectively weaker than a regular Great Unclean One because of theses, whilst Exalted Great Unclean one's only lose to him because they're so much worse than Heralds or regular Great Unclean Ones.

    Heralds better than Exalted Unclean Ones.

    The major issue that causes this is two-fold. One, Exalted Unclean Ones are effectively the inferior version of their regular unit self. They get the Mortis Engine effect, but that is their only advantage over the regular variant. Which the regular unit gets 1 free boil, hero snipe, splurge and a heal. And greater overall stats for melee. Then you have the herald that can do everything the Exalted can, but better, AND do it whilst mounted on a fast moving fly mount, AND have contagion which has unlimited uses. In that scenario - why would you ever choose an Exalted one over the Herald?

    The Fix

    Need bound spells added to Exalted Unclean Ones AND Kugath. Make Kugath's bonuses factionwide, including the plague reduction on army cast. Give Exalted and Kugath Greater Arcane Conduit. Give Exalted the ability to spawn exploding Nurglings like Kugath as a skill trait, and make it baseline for Kugath. Have that skill instead increase the capacity for uses for himself and Exalted Unclean Ones. Provide Exalted with the option of one of the three contagion abilities, just like the Heralds. Give Kugath the heal only variant but unlimited uses.

    This cements Kugath as a tanky big boi that can do a number on you in sustained melee. It makes Exalted ones powerful investments worth the loss of levels. It also gives Kugath's faction something that will define it more apart from potential other Nurgle faction leaders.

    Would love to hear everyone's feedback on this! :smile:
  • WalfurWalfur Registered Users Posts: 31
    Murrayman said:

    Lords

    Heralds better than Exalted Unclean Ones.

    The major issue that causes this is two-fold. One, Exalted Unclean Ones are effectively the inferior version of their regular unit self. They get the Mortis Engine effect, but that is their only advantage over the regular variant. Which the regular unit gets 1 free boil, hero snipe, splurge and a heal. And greater overall stats for melee. Then you have the herald that can do everything the Exalted can, but better, AND do it whilst mounted on a fast moving fly mount, AND have contagion which has unlimited uses. In that scenario - why would you ever choose an Exalted one over the Herald?

    I feel like stressing here that it would require you to "sacrifice" a lvl 22 or higher Herald in order to get the Mortis engine effect out of the gate, not investing any points into any other line. The decision to replace the herald is considerably weighted against, given, that by lvl 22 aformentioned Herald will fly with a speed of 90 (does it really though?) and will have one line filled and another started as well as have had access to the Locus abilities, meaning it will have a game plan and boost complementing units. Put this against a large slow entity whose sole advantage is only useful when standing inside blobs of enemies while being vulnerable to focus fire as a lord of a faction whose armies tend to suffer the vampire count malus of completely falling apart after the death of the lord.

    For fairness´ sake i will add however, without mount and without excessive magic use, Heralds die to Ogre Bulls.
    Murrayman said:

    The Fix

    Need bound spells added to Exalted Unclean Ones AND Kugath. Make Kugath's bonuses factionwide, including the plague reduction on army cast. Give Exalted and Kugath Greater Arcane Conduit. Give Exalted the ability to spawn exploding Nurglings like Kugath as a skill trait, and make it baseline for Kugath. Have that skill instead increase the capacity for uses for himself and Exalted Unclean Ones. Provide Exalted with the option of one of the three contagion abilities, just like the Heralds. Give Kugath the heal only variant but unlimited uses.

    As mentioned above, my reason for not replacing Heralds is far more tied to mobility and survivability. I´d rather have a evasive and, however minor it may ultimately end up being, supportive Lord, instead of a suicidal, immobile self-destruct button. As such, however fun i think this change might be, it kinda does nothing to alleviate the feeling of fragility in EGUOs. Frankly i don´t start considering replacing them prior to lvl 40, at which point the arguments against have only accumulated.

    My point is this:
    Heralds start bad and become reliable fast
    EGUOs start as a liability and only ever become useful if x

    What are your thoughts on Frogs?

    I find their purpose of "disperse!" kind of antithetical to Nurgles playstyle. Magic doesn´t like it, and i have not found a unit that can effectively deal with randomly strewn about models. Sure, they kill, kind of, but take up so much space doing so that they keep interfering with other units.






  • MurraymanMurrayman Registered Users Posts: 25
    Frogs I feel are a joke unit. Their speed is ok, but their damage is weak, and are incredibly fragile. Likewise, they just don't fit with the rest of their roster. So an average unit is made to be a terrible one because of lack of synergy. I'd like to see them have innate regen and deathblow, so essentially be a highly mobile unit to bog ranged units down. Currently, they'll lose to blue horrors in melee at higher difficulties.

    With my changes to exalted, I'd see them as a less mobile but far more damaging variant of the Herald. So their difference is mobility vs impact. An exalted able to produce the mortis engine melee, the contagion the heralds get for a second damage, and nurgling bombs. Between these they'd do incredible amounts of damage, easily creating 30-40k in damage. But still being overall more vulnerable compared to Heralds. I feel that is the distinction they need and would make it a more interesting strategic choice. Currently, Heralds have everything and Exalteds have meme animations. That's bout it.

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