Shogun 2 Multiplayer is unbalanced

Schulz · May 2012

Pre-Words

Now, before people start writing comment saying that I should "find another game to play if I think Shogun 2 is bad", I would like to explain why I consider multiplayer in Shogun 2, mainly between Shogun 2 and Fall of the Samurai users, to be unbalanced.

I've been playing Shogun 2 Total war from the very first day it was released, and I still continue to play it even today. I believe I am quite familiar with how Shogun 2 "works", considering that I literally have played hundreds of online multiplayer battles. Below I shall try to explain why I think Shogun 2 Multiplayer to be unbalanced, and why I believe it needs a patch

Fall of the Samurai vs. Shogun 2: Total War = Unbalanced

It was after the release of the stand-alone-expansion pack Fall of the Samurai, that I began noticing very serious unbalancing-issues in Shogun 2 Total war. I, including many other respective Total War players, had prior to the release worried about how the Creative Assembly guys would balanced the differences between melee and gunpowder weapons. The result was devastating; the Fall of the Samurai-units were "cheaper" (damage per unit-wise), more effective, and most importantly had a far superior technological advantage* (*:not really the problem, though)). Fall of the Samurai also included units such as the Armstrong Gun, Carbine Cavalry and Generals with powerful gunpowder weapons with extraordinary range, all capable of dealing terrible, terrible damage. New maps were also included, but few seemed to have in mind the melee-units such as the traditional samurai and their critical strategic needs in order to successfully overthrow a full Imperial army of rifle-carrying infantry...

Melee units; the samurai

The Fall of the Samurai included a vast and satisfying number of firearms-carrying units. Sadly, very few "good" melee-units came with the expansion pack. Prior to the release, I was hoping there would be a wide and equal numbers of both melee and firearms units. Sadly, (yet, actually quite expected) Fall of the Samurai seemed to favor the use of firearms in-game. The expansion pack 'did' include one fantastic new type of ninja (Kisho Ninja), but no other intriguing melee units, which I found to be rather heart-breaking. The Kachi samurais included are not only expensive, but nearly impossible to use against a player that is using his firearms units smartly. Even so, on an open flat field it is literally almost impossible to fight firearms units with melee units; before engaging in close-combat, the melee units will have to travel across a flat field taking heavy morale punishment as it plunges into a rain of fire. Let's say every samurai battalion loses an average of 2,3/6 of it's men, per enemy riflemen battalion, by enemy fire, that means that a samurai army consisting of 700 men (versus 700 enemy firearms units) would lose 266 men when charging towards the enemy. That means that only 434 samurais (700-266=434 ) would remain to fight the enemy that still has 700men and not lost a single man. With these numbers, the samurais are likely to rout and thus losing the game...

Also, the level of energy would still need to be accounted for, considering that the melee army would have to run towards Dojo's to try capture them, becoming tired even before charging the enemy. While the ranged army on the other hand, can keep a distance because of its ranged ability.

Personally I am more of a close-combat guy and do not like to use firearms AT ALL. With the release of Fall of the Samurai, I found it incredible amusing to fight ranged rifle-infantry using a traditional army consisting of bow, horse, and sword units by using interesting and "awesome" tactics, some based on real-life ones. The sad thing is that I would many times lose versus a gunpowder army when fighting on basic plain grounds and when there was little to no cover for my samurai men.

"Use archers, dude!"

Yes, I have tried using archers versus Fall of the Samurai players, but the archer are NO MATCH for firearms units and even cavalry units with firearms. Especially cavalry with firearms have the ability to "hit & run", slowly decreasing your army size. The damage-per-second and accuracy of traditional bow-units are just terrible and awful compared to firearms units. You are sometimes lucky if you even kill 1 enemy soldier with your first arrow volley...(the accuracy is THAT bad, yes!!!!!!!!) and with the enemy firearms units quickly approaching your, you know you're screwed when the enemy units suddenly stop and take aim at your samurai units and slaughter them with nearly a single volley.

In front-up battles without natural cover, bow samurais are annihilated by firearms units. This is all very, very, VERY frustrating when I very much want to play a melee army versus a firearms army, hence wishing the game was balanced.

I am aware that there is a box I can check which excludes the possibility to meet Fall of the Samurai players, but I WISH to play against firearms units. I am just so much in love with the samurai tradition and its history. I am of course aware that firearms have a much greater advantage, but arrows aren't as useless in real life as they are in Shogun 2 total war. So while guns and bullets have great accuracy in FotS (and Shogun 2), bow and arrows seem to lack these features, even though bows can be extremely accurate in the hands of an experienced wielder.

I have personally experienced a game where I had three bow samurai units together with some melee infantry versus a Fall of the Samurai player who only had 2 Carbine Cavalry units and 3 Yari Cavalry. He fired at my at my archers and ran back for cover even before my first volley of arrow had landed. With his first shots he instantly killed 43 of my 90 bow samurais without losing a SINGLE unit! He continued to slowly kill my units, shooting and running, all the time, until I quit out of frustration. At the end of the game, I had killed 33 of his units, and he 446 of mine... I have tried using Mounted Gunners, a unit that came with the DLC "Rise of the Samurai, to try counter such a tactic, but they cost 1000 Gold and only have a range of 100, compared to the Carbine Cavalry which has a range of 125 and only costs 900 gold.:mad:

What needs to be done?

In conclusion, I am not really sure what balance-work needs to be done, but I am VERY sure there has to be some!
Some ideas I have is giving a regular Shogun 2 player more money to spend due to its obvious disadvantage on many maps, or to either increase the accuracy of Shogun 2 bow units. Having special maps that the Shogun 2 player could take advantage of (such as small "holes" where units can take cover from firearm missiles when playing against FotS players would also be a good feature. Adding a couple of units that Shogun 2 players could use, that specialize versus FotS players is almost a MUST considering the bow units currently are ridiculous, and the fact that it's suicide for Shogun 2 players to charge head on an army consisting of units with firearms.

Because, as previously states, I am a melee-guy, I now only play Shogun 2, rather than Fall of the Samurai, because of its lack of variety and types of melee and bow infantry. I absolutely dislike the close-combat units in Fall of the Samurai.

Thanks for reading this, and sorry for the long text. But please, fix this issue. It is ruing the fun for a lot of players, including me!

tricky-step · May 2012

Fall of the samurai is and cannot be balanced with regular Shogun 2 players. That is why there is an option to not mix avatars.

amadieus · May 2012

Good post. This game has indeed some balancing issues. Even the best method to defeat Fots players (Melee army with a bunch of cav) is hard enough when u play against a person with some good skills.

But for the most part this game is very well balanced.

dark as silver · May 2012

I believe that the game is surprisingly balanced especially compared to the matchlock spam period. Well played S2 armies can and will beat FotS and vice versa, Belle has already made a thread saying she prefers to face FotS armies than S2 and I believe that bushido armies in FotS are extra proof of that.
Personally I believe the key is being able in the prebattle setup to be able to note the insignia above the steam avatar and modifying/ planning ahead according to that.
There have been multiple post about this topic already, please post replays and I think that we need to ask CA to provide statistics (if they keep them) on relative % wins in mixed avatar matches. Alternately hosting Ai vs Ai games ought to be able to provide a even skill base for player tests to be run.

Schulz · May 2012

You talk about how Shogun 2 USED to be unbalanced, while I speak of the CURRENT situation... I remember the early balance issues, but this post I've made is regarding the balance issues PER DATE, and not months ago!

Also, at what point do you expect the enemy of only using Carbine Cavalry when you're playing against a FotS player? As I've written, Carbine Cavalry annihilates bow units, and this is bad because bow units are VERY important in the use of making FotS players attack (because of the extra range bow units have), or else FotS may just as well "camp".

Hymer7 · May 2012

I agree with dark. Although its not perfect there is a surprising amount of balance. I get legitimately nervous when playing a ten star s2 army. They are fast and hit hard. They bring excellent Cav and can just surround u. Also a bow gen is going to obliterate ur gen when the fight starts!

That all being said there are very good counters with Fots armies too. Both just have to be smart!

dark as silver · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

You talk about how Shogun 2 USED to be unbalanced

I try to calm the rabble as history has shown how hamfistedly CA wields the nerfhammer. And did you even read the rest of my statement?

Schulz · May 2012

dark as silver wrote: »

I try to calm the rabble as history has shown how hamfistedly CA wields the nerfhammer. And did you even read the rest of my statement?

Yes I did. Although I don't know who "Belle" is, try playing a game versus a friend, or someone who's about as good as you are on a map such as "Rice Fields", and you will see how easily a Shogun 2 army will become crushed by a FotS army. It's all about terrain, and many maps (such as Rice Fields) are just way too difficult for Shogun 2 players. I recommend for anyone who says that Shogun 2 and FotS are both equally good to try playing a couple of online games using a Shogun 2 army to play against FotS players, and you will easily understand what I'm talking about.

Schulz · May 2012

dark as silver wrote: »

Alternately hosting Ai vs Ai games ought to be able to provide a even skill base for player tests to be run.

I understand what you're trying to do, but using artificial intelligence to show a balance issue is a terrible idea. A computer only does what it is programmed to do. A human brain is much more flexible and adapts better to the current situation. In other words: A human brain can be very unpredictable, whilst the Shogun 2 Total War Ai, is nowhere near as intelligent as a "normal" human brain, hence making awful decision when attacking.

the bourgeoisie · May 2012

here is your balance, you have cheaper units, and you don't having capping on shogi which is liek your no dachi, and your yari cav,
plus using bows is a waste of money if your tryign to beat a whole gun army, that is supported by cav, if you do that you will get pumped everytime, you guys have the ability to fill the 20 slots, i don't but i am a bushido gen so s2 players don't bother me anyway

Curiango · May 2012

I use vanila s2 and my winrate against fots avatars is over 70%. Its not that bad, just have to adapt and use the terrain well.
And 200 range archers are great.:cool:

Schulz · May 2012

the bourgeoisie wrote: »

...you have cheaper units... I am a bushido gen so s2 players don't bother me anyway

Cheaper units means less morale. Less morale means that the units are more likely to rout when being fired upon. Also, you say Shogun 2 players "don't bother you" which kind of supports my statement that the game is unbalanced. Unless you're some sort of super pro gamer I think it is reasonable to question the balance between Shogun 2 and FotS.

dark as silver · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

I understand what you're trying to do, but using artificial intelligence to show a balance issue is a terrible idea. A computer only does what it is programmed to do. A human brain is much more flexible and adapts better to the current situation. In other words: A human brain can be very unpredictable, whilst the Shogun 2 Total War Ai, is nowhere near as intelligent as a "normal" human brain, hence making awful decision when attacking.

My reasoning is that if too equal opponents with different armies meet they ought to win the game about 50/50 % if its more than that one of the armys either is a counter or op, its a simple concept. while AIs are not as good as human players and have a tendency not to exploit things, they ought to provide a valid insight into what is fair and what isn't. Regardless the AI's deficiency was one reason I also suggested requesting statistics from CA.

dark as silver · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

try playing a game versus a friend, or someone who's about as good as you are on a map such as "Rice Fields"

This is why I suggested AI tests and you flat out refused that. and now you're complaining about maps not units.

the bourgeoisie wrote: »

here is your balance, you have cheaper units

exactly the first decent fots line unit is 760 koku and there are no real filler units like attendants.

Schulz · May 2012

dark as silver wrote: »

This is why I suggested AI tests and you flat out refused that. and now you're complaining about maps not units.

I'm not refusing to use anything, please stop putting words in my mouth. I said using the Shogun 2 Ai is a bad idea to show balancing issues. Of course, if different tests are being ran over and over again it will potentially show some exploits and what not. But will never get as good result as if you were using human brains.

Yes, I am mentioning maps. Is that a problem? I still think bow units are a total waste versus firearms. I even think a 500gold worth unit such as the White Tiger Force would able to defeat a 700gold worth Bow Samurai unit, if not, another "-Force"-unit should be able to do so head on.

I am not sure I understand what you're talking about when you're mentioning attendants there, sorry.

JohnnyCrypton · May 2012

Just because someone defeated you, doesn't mean game is unbalanced. Imo this game is pretty well balanced, only some little tweaks are needed. Unfortunately i have never played S2, but i met lot of very good S2 players/avatars. And from my perpective, it's cheaper and bigger bushido army with more cav.

So it's actually better for melee generals out there.

EDIT: and archers are not supposed to fight 1V1 against any firearms... just stay behind hill, behind your lines and getting kills.

Schulz · May 2012

JohnnyCrypton wrote: »

Just because someone defeated you, doesn't mean game is unbalanced. Imo this game is pretty well balanced... ...Unfortunately i have never played S2, but i met lot of very good S2 players/avatars. And from my perpective, it's cheaper and bigger bushido army with more cav. So it's actually better for melee generals out there.

EDIT: and archers are not supposed to fight 1V1 against any firearms... just stay behind hill, behind your lines and getting kills.

Do you honestly think I am saying the game is unbalanced because 1 person defeated me? No, it's not because I lost one game, two games, five games, ten games twenty games or even 50 games. It is because FotS firearms units are cheaper and deal incredible damage compared to what Shogun 2 units are capable of. Take the White Tiger Force and Loan Sword Ashigaru as an example. They both cost 500 gold. The White Tiger Force should be capable of wiping out the Loan Sword Ashigaru unit making it rout in no time.

So, before anyone else says that Shogun 2 units are cheaper. Yes, SOME ARE, but the cheap units are useless!!!! The cheap units can't stand projectilefires and easily rout!! Meanwhile, the FotS players have also got cheap firearms units such as the White Tiger Force and various other "Force"-units!!!! The "force" units are way better than any ashigaru unit from Shogun 2!!

Yes, I am not saying I purposely have my Bow Samurai in the open to receive fire from firearms, but staying behind hills isn't possible on all maps! In fact, very few maps have enough cover for a whole Shogun 2 army to take cover behind! And if there is no cover, they will receive fire, and when they receive fire they must either retreat or engage. Attacking means that the whole army must join the attack, otherwise the unit being fired upon is likely to rout. Retreating means "wasted" casualties. It's a lose-lose situation!

dark as silver · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

I still think bow units are a total waste versus firearms. I even think a 500gold worth unit such as the White Tiger Force is would able to defeat a 700gold worth Bow Samurai unit, if not, an another "-Force"-unit should be able to do so head on.

I am not sure I understand what you're talking about when you're mentioning attendants there, sorry.

If you're getting into head on fights with bow units against gun units they you're doing it wrong, stand behind hills as you can shoot over but they cant shoot through. DO NOT MENTION RICE FIELDS REGARDING THIS I KNOW TERRAIN ABUSE IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE ON THAT MAP.
I mentioned attendants as they fill a unit role that is only filled by proxy in FOTS, cheap expendable units.

Karingemori · May 2012

What if you get a map without hills? Or what if the FOTS player isn't dumb enough to park his gun units on the other side of the hill?

Schulz · May 2012

Karingemori wrote: »

What if you get a map without hills? Or what if the FOTS player isn't dumb enough to park his gun units on the other side of the hill?

Thank you!! Finally someone who understands!!!

Mr.Crack · May 2012

There's a reason defeating a FOTS army with a vanilla S2 one yields an achievement. It's a challenge. If you don't like it, don't play mixed avatar games. Apart from that, there's nothing you can do because CA has no reason whatsoever to adjust the balance of S2 vs FOTS armies in any way, no matter how passionately or elaborately people argue about it on the forums.

Karingemori · May 2012

Get the expansion or GTFO, I get the message

PerOle · May 2012

or, you know, don't just charge blindly into melee with your troops. I always bring Shogitai in my armies because melee units are VERY useful if you use them properly. Charging them across a field into enemy fire is not using them properly.

Karingemori · May 2012

I don't even know what a shogitai is. Another expansion unit?

How do I close the gap with the opponent if I can't charge him? It's hard to maneuver the infantry around, and very few opponents are so dumb that they'll let cavalry flank openly.

I mean, if nothing else he advances on me to get into shooting range and then what? Do I move back until... what? Do I have to spam like 6+ cavalry just to try and feed him horses while melee closes in?

Schulz · May 2012

Mr.Crack wrote: »

There's a reason defeating a FOTS army with a vanilla S2 one yields an achievement. It's a challenge. If you don't like it, don't play mixed avatar games. Apart from that, there's nothing you can do because CA has no reason whatsoever to adjust the balance of S2 vs FOTS armies in any way, no matter how passionately or elaborately people argue about it on the forums.

I try to understand how you can think that Creative Assembly has no reason to make balance changes in the game. I am sorry, but your way of thinking is absolutely wrong! "It's a challenge"? You think it should be MORE difficult for a Shogun 2 army to win? I don't think so. If the game was perfectly balanced, both players could play the game knowing that they've got about the same odds of winning (if both equally skilled, of course). What you are basically saying is "I know it's more difficult to use a Shogun 2 army vs FotS army" and that you either don't care, or don't want to have it changed, which is either stupid or selfish, or both.

Mr.Crack wrote: »

...no matter how passionately or elaborately people argue about it on the forums.

If people don't complaint, write ideas/suggestion, report bugs, etc, in the forums, are we all supposed to send written letters to Creative Assembly instead? I think not. ;)There is a reason forums exist.

I don't like comparing games, but one of my childhood-games; "Starcraft" is a game which I consider to be VERY balanced.And I hope that Shogun 2 multiplayer will become as balanced as Starcraft one day. (Of Course, I know they're two different games, but I'm speaking of the balance in-game) If you don't know what Starcraft is, I recommend you check it out. It is one of the most balanced and amazing games I've ever played!:)

dark as silver · May 2012

Karingemori wrote: »

What if you get a map without hills? Or what if the FOTS player isn't dumb enough to park his gun units on the other side of the hill?

If you get a map without hills put a couple of units in front of his line and attack a flank, if you get a map with hill and the fots player moves up then you have a shorter rush with your melee or just move behind the next hill.

StrakerYrius · May 2012

Its called "Fall of the Samurai" for a reason - the clue is in the title.

Guns are simply superior as a weapon to bows in the hands of low level troops. That's why they superceded bows so quickly as soon as they were introduced, as any idiot aashigaru can shoot one and kill without much training. However, a bow is a far superior weapon in the hands of an expert bowman - highly vetted troops. It shoots faster and can have accuracy superior to guns as well. Against low armour targets one hit = one kill. Consequently, do not even bother to bring bows that do not significantly outrange your opponents firearms. Fall back if he advances to try to get a shot off, but have a second unit shooting all the time.

S2 armies vs FotS is unbalanced - which is why there is the achievement for beating one, but if your S2 army has the right mix of troops - Lots of Good cav, 2 x 200 bows, and a horde of Attendants and no-dachis, you have a very good chance of outmanouvering, out-shooting and defeating your average FotS opponent.

the bourgeoisie · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

Cheaper units means less morale. Less morale means that the units are more likely to rout when being fired upon. Also, you say Shogun 2 players "don't bother you" which kind of supports my statement that the game is unbalanced. Unless you're some sort of super pro gamer I think it is reasonable to question the balance between Shogun 2 and FotS.

it doesn't bother me because i'm bushido gen, i use melee, not guns,
and having cheaper units doens't mean you have less morale, your guys if used properly can tear through a lot of fots armies, bring enough cav and melee you can do it, even kiting a fots player with 175 rank monks will do wonders, it's funny since you think it's unbalanced but in reality, it's not to much, and when you think about it, your vsing units ahead of your time period, so unless your units have kevlar or their jedi's they are meant to die, and if you were to balance them out to your standard, fots armies would be useless, just bring melee, to stop s2 players and get rid of the factor of guns

along the lines of rice field, 1v1 melee will lose on flat maps, 2v2 no way,
plus even in 1v1 you have enough cav, and enough cheaper units to wipe the smirk of any fots, so maybe realise that fots is predominately meant to win

Mr.Crack · May 2012

Schulz wrote: »

I try to understand how you can think that Creative Assembly has no reason to make balance changes in the game. I am sorry, but your way of thinking is absolutely wrong! "It's a challenge"? You think it should be MORE difficult for a Shogun 2 army to win?

Yes, it should. Just slightly more difficult. Not enough to totally put people off but just enough so that buying the game for its multiplayer content becomes another incentive to buy it.

Karingemori · May 2012

While that is a good idea from a company perspective, it's an absolute ****over for players unwilling to shell out cash to stay competitive.

Schulz · May 2012

the bourgeoisie wrote: »

...it doesn't bother me because i'm bushido gen, i use melee, not guns,
and having cheaper units doens't mean you have less morale...

If you really are a "bushido" player, you would know that cheaper units=lesser morale. It is idiotic to argue about this when you obviously see the differences in morale between cheaper and "normal-expensive" units. You can even see the differences in the unit selection section, where all of a unit's Melee defence, attack, range, bonus vs cavalry, INCLUDING MORALE, etc, stats is shown.

I don't know why, but something tells me you don't play using a Shogun 2 army, or perhaps that you don't have enough experience regarding the issue I've brought forth in this thread. No offence, of course.

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