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How much Grimdark is too much?

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  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062

    I remember how when Cathay was announced, there was all this speculation that the Monkey King was some evil Chaos demon or cultist trying to upend Cathay.

    Now that the game's been released with people playing as Cathay, now he's suddenly this borderline Robin-Hood figure or some kind of rebel who might actually have a point.

    And people still say that Cathay doesn't fit in Warhammer.

    Well, I'd really rather have had the Monkey King be something far more than just another chaos goon character.

    Personally, I think that he should've been the Avatar of Malal or something where he's literally chaotic and is willing to fight anyone. Or maybe he's an outcast "chaos" god who walks the physical realm.

    But I think that Cathay itself just needs a bit more lore and such to flesh them out, that's all.
  • damon40000#7640damon40000#7640 Registered Users Posts: 1,787
    i like all the grimdark + ordinary people fighting borderline mythical creatures
    BsFG dwarf
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,951
    edited July 16

    Surge_2 said:

    There is no "too much".

    Pretty much. My favourite type of grimdark is the one that embraces nihilism to the extreme. Bright spots and good moments exist only to be destroyed and said destruction is glorified.
    If a world gets too dark, people will stop caring. What's the point of a story if you already know the ending (the world ends, everybody suffers enternal damnation and pain, bla de blah, too bleak, stopped caring)? You need a hope spot, mainly to make way for one conflict or the other. If every hope spot gets squandered, things become predicable.
    The struggle against inevitable, denial and wishful thinking are a part of the charm. It's not the destination, it's the journey I value the most. It's all about characters' development rather than the world itself. Good writing is the key.

    When I think of grimdark I think of Pratchett:
    Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.

    NVNM said:

    The problem isn't grim dark, it's grimderp.

    That's actually exactly what I'm talking about.

    It's more than I'm worried about them trying so ridiculously hard to make races like Ind and Nippon super grimdark that they come off as more of some teenager's overly edgy "grimdark" fanfic.

    I honestly think that that would be worse than what some people say stuff like Nippon can be, with cat girls and such ridiculous nonsense.
    They made Cathay borderline benevolent entities... I kind of wish Cathay was more Grimdark, for example the Dragon Emperor demanding human sacrifices.
    I agree. I would prefer darker Cathay led by dragon tyrants over, let me paraphrase CA_Andy, hero race ruled by largely benevolent dragons.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246


    Personally, I think that he should've been the Avatar of Malal or something where he's literally chaotic and is willing to fight anyone. Or maybe he's an outcast "chaos" god who walks the physical realm.


    Kneel

  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062


    When the majority of your society has been directly influenced by the Elven god of murder, chaos cults, collective trauma, dark magic, and a persecution-superiority complex, it's kind of hard to not hone off the edge a little bit. Dark Elves are who they are for very clear and consistent reasons within the setting, even if they're evil for the sake of it.

    Why do Nippon and Khuresh have to be "balanced" in a setting that's always been over the top and excessive? There's already evidence to suggest that snake people of Khuresh are at least Chaos-adjacent, as are the tigerfolk.

    Because a lot of us don't want Nippon and Ind to just be more overly edgy grimderp chaos warriors, but from the east.

    The Naga of Khuresh are known to be evil, so it's alright for them to be really grimdark and all, but Nippon and Ind shouldn't just be the same exact things that we've seen before.

    They can do Nippon and Ind justice without making them just like the dark elves or chaos worshipers.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    saweendra said:

    40 k level derp too much.

    Yeah, some stuff in 40k is just dumb with how grimdark they try to make it.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246

    i like all the grimdark + ordinary people fighting borderline mythical creatures

    Exactly what Warhammer was about.
    Kneel

  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    Surge_2 said:

    What? Anything's better than just being another generic chaos character.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062

    i like all the grimdark + ordinary people fighting borderline mythical creatures

    I understand that, I just think that GW and CA should be a little careful with it so it doesn't go all grimderp like some things in 40k.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246

    i like all the grimdark + ordinary people fighting borderline mythical creatures

    I understand that, I just think that GW and CA should be a little careful with it so it doesn't go all grimderp like some things in 40k.
    The IP which carries the financial load for GW? You think CA should avoid becoming that?

    K.
    Kneel

  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,893

    I remember how when Cathay was announced, there was all this speculation that the Monkey King was some evil Chaos demon or cultist trying to upend Cathay.

    Now that the game's been released with people playing as Cathay, now he's suddenly this borderline Robin-Hood figure or some kind of rebel who might actually have a point.

    And people still say that Cathay doesn't fit in Warhammer.

    Well, I'd really rather have had the Monkey King be something far more than just another chaos goon character.

    Personally, I think that he should've been the Avatar of Malal or something where he's literally chaotic and is willing to fight anyone. Or maybe he's an outcast "chaos" god who walks the physical realm.

    But I think that Cathay itself just needs a bit more lore and such to flesh them out, that's all.
    ....Or he just be an organic consequence of Cathay's strictly hierarchal and restrictive society offering Cathayan citizens an alternative to being toys and tools to the dragons. The original Monkey King is a trickster and kind of a ****, but he's also a hero who's supposed to be immortal and enlightened.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,893


    When the majority of your society has been directly influenced by the Elven god of murder, chaos cults, collective trauma, dark magic, and a persecution-superiority complex, it's kind of hard to not hone off the edge a little bit. Dark Elves are who they are for very clear and consistent reasons within the setting, even if they're evil for the sake of it.

    Why do Nippon and Khuresh have to be "balanced" in a setting that's always been over the top and excessive? There's already evidence to suggest that snake people of Khuresh are at least Chaos-adjacent, as are the tigerfolk.

    Because a lot of us don't want Nippon and Ind to just be more overly edgy grimderp chaos warriors, but from the east.

    The Naga of Khuresh are known to be evil, so it's alright for them to be really grimdark and all, but Nippon and Ind shouldn't just be the same exact things that we've seen before.

    They can do Nippon and Ind justice without making them just like the dark elves or chaos worshipers.
    If you don't want grimdark, then don't play Warhammer. Age of Mythology is right there if you want a war game with fantastical elements.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246


    If you don't want grimdark, then don't play Warhammer. Age of Mythology is right there if you want a war game with fantastical elements.

    The objectively correct take.
    Kneel

  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    Surge_2 said:


    The IP which carries the financial load for GW? You think CA should avoid becoming that?

    K.

    Wait. What do you mean by that exactly?
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246

    Surge_2 said:


    The IP which carries the financial load for GW? You think CA should avoid becoming that?

    K.

    Wait. What do you mean by that exactly?
    40K is far and away, FAR and away, the money maker for GW. The IP a few misguided people call 'grimderp' is why you even have these games.
    Kneel

  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062


    ....Or he just be an organic consequence of Cathay's strictly hierarchal and restrictive society offering Cathayan citizens an alternative to being toys and tools to the dragons. The original Monkey King is a trickster and kind of a ****, but he's also a hero who's supposed to be immortal and enlightened.

    Well that's certainly something they could do with him.

    I think the idea of the Monkey King being some sort of being that's too powerful for any of the Warhammer gods to destroy would be very interesting, and maybe he's on a quest to reclaim his true power or something.


    If you don't want grimdark, then don't play Warhammer. Age of Mythology is right there if you want a war game with fantastical elements.

    And there you go with your constant assuming Nemo.

    I honestly think folks like you need to stop demanding that everything in Fantasy Warhammer be turned into nightmare fuel or whatever.

    Because whether you guys like it or not, not all Warhammer is as dark and messed up as the chaos worshipers and dark elf edge lords.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    Surge_2 said:


    40K is far and away, FAR and away, the money maker for GW. The IP a few misguided people call 'grimderp' is why you even have these games.

    Well, I have seen and heard of things in 40k that were ridiculously grimdark just because, so good point I guess.

    I just think that everything doesn't always HAVE to be some sort of grimdark nightmare fuel nonsense to work within the setting.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,246

    Surge_2 said:


    40K is far and away, FAR and away, the money maker for GW. The IP a few misguided people call 'grimderp' is why you even have these games.

    Well, I have seen and heard of things in 40k that were ridiculously grimdark just because, so good point I guess.

    I just think that everything doesn't always HAVE to be some sort of grimdark nightmare fuel nonsense to work within the setting.
    You are free obviously to think whatever you want.

    The most over the top, satirical, grimdark setting GW has, is, was, and remains, the most profitable.

    CA could do far worse, than to be as successful as 40K.
    Kneel

  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,893
    edited July 16
    Delete. Redundant response
    Post edited by NemoTheElf101 on
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,893


    ....Or he just be an organic consequence of Cathay's strictly hierarchal and restrictive society offering Cathayan citizens an alternative to being toys and tools to the dragons. The original Monkey King is a trickster and kind of a ****, but he's also a hero who's supposed to be immortal and enlightened.

    Well that's certainly something they could do with him.

    I think the idea of the Monkey King being some sort of being that's too powerful for any of the Warhammer gods to destroy would be very interesting, and maybe he's on a quest to reclaim his true power or something.


    If you don't want grimdark, then don't play Warhammer. Age of Mythology is right there if you want a war game with fantastical elements.

    And there you go with your constant assuming Nemo.

    I honestly think folks like you need to stop demanding that everything in Fantasy Warhammer be turned into nightmare fuel or whatever.

    Because whether you guys like it or not, not all Warhammer is as dark and messed up as the chaos worshipers and dark elf edge lords.
    Warhammer is grimdark. That's how the setting works. That is how it's always worked. Stop changing the franchise to be something that it isn't.

    Stop with the strawmanning, that I want edgy McEdgyness all the time 24/7. My favorite two Warhammer factions are Kislev and the High Elves, to decidedly heroic factions that are also grimdark, because they're Warhammer factions.

    People play Warhammer because it's grimdark, because it's a dark, satirical, over the top setting where you have dig through the blood, grime, and gore to get some kind of positive reward or any kind of optimism. That's the point of the game.

    Accept it or play something else. King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame isn't expensive and is on Steam if you want something less grimdark than Warhammer but still want a fantastical RTS.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,203

    Surge_2 said:

    There is no "too much".

    Well, I wouldn't be making this thread if that was the case.
    Yeah but, you're wrong though. So you would. And did ;)
  • Lunaticprince#9972Lunaticprince#9972 Registered Users Posts: 6,750
    Dude khuresh being human hunting blood drinker is actually a cool take not chaos worshiper but actually predator against humans.


    Aka natural enemies


    Nippon?

    Give me all the grim dark

    Getting demons serving under them, a careless emperor who fight against a brutal shogun

    Also they should totaly be evil and raid all other middle east nations


    Ind can be between something lime ogre


    They not as orderly as Cathay buy they not evil perse, not monstrous human eating monster like khuresh but tiger man take some "snacks" on the local population, not outright evil like Nippon but try to remain more neutral


  • Lunaticprince#9972Lunaticprince#9972 Registered Users Posts: 6,750

    i like all the grimdark + ordinary people fighting borderline mythical creatures

    Human fighting!

    Mushrooms! Literally demons! Mutated goat man, mutated super human who probably kill 50 regular before he even go down, rat man with crazy weapons, emo elves with Greek mythical creatures


    And I love it


  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 2,605

    adding cathay and the rest of the footnotes races already means youre trying to rebrand the setting, so just do your best to give em some kind of plausibility so they dont look like theyre there just for the sake of covering every fantasy tropes.

    Surge_2 said:

    adding cathay and the rest of the footnotes races already means youre trying to rebrand the setting, so just do your best to give em some kind of plausibility so they dont look like theyre there just for the sake of covering every fantasy tropes.

    That's kind of what I want to see.

    I mainly just want them all to not be so grimdark that they're all but edgy cartoons.
    Why do you hate Warhammer?
    Those are the single stupidest comments I've ever read.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    more grimdark for me, thanks.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038


    -"In the view of Jared Shurin, grimdark fantasy has three key components: a grim and dark tone, a sense of realism (for example, monarchs are useless and heroes are flawed), and the agency of the protagonists: whereas in high fantasy everything is predestined and the tension revolves around how the heroes defeat the Dark Lord, grimdark is "fantasy protestantism": characters have to choose between good and evil, and are "just as lost as we are".

    it seems he got Catholicism and Protestantism backward about predestination.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,423
    There is no such thing as too much grimdark as long as it's done well.

    Dark Souls is pure grim dark from start to finish. Even when you think there's a ray of Sunshine, it's just there to drown you in despair later.

    Even in final victory when you save the world, your fate is for your soul to burn for a thousand years until there is nothing left in order to fuel another cycle of life and prosperity.

    There can never be enough grimdark.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    Surge_2 said:

    You are free obviously to think whatever you want.

    The most over the top, satirical, grimdark setting GW has, is, was, and remains, the most profitable.

    CA could do far worse, than to be as successful as 40K.

    I will agree with you, that CA can do a lot worse, but I still don't think that "grimdarkness" equals money in every situation.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062


    Warhammer is grimdark. That's how the setting works. That is how it's always worked. Stop changing the franchise to be something that it isn't.

    Stop with the strawmanning, that I want edgy McEdgyness all the time 24/7. My favorite two Warhammer factions are Kislev and the High Elves, to decidedly heroic factions that are also grimdark, because they're Warhammer factions.

    People play Warhammer because it's grimdark, because it's a dark, satirical, over the top setting where you have dig through the blood, grime, and gore to get some kind of positive reward or any kind of optimism. That's the point of the game.

    Accept it or play something else. King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame isn't expensive and is on Steam if you want something less grimdark than Warhammer but still want a fantastical RTS.

    I never said it wasn't Nemo, but you're certainly giving off that sort of vibe when you're acting like doing anything short of making races like Ind and Nippon all but chaos warriors in terms of grimdarkness and all that.

    Why can't Nippon and Ind be similar to Kislev and the High Elves in such a regard? Why can't they be more heroic and such?

    Again, I just think that when you make such a big deal because someone suggests that they don't make a race overly dark and edgy is ridiculous.

    Not making Nippon or Ind into chaos worshipers won't ruin the Warhammer world dude.

    So it's you who should accept that and deal with it.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,062
    Itharus said:


    Yeah but, you're wrong though. So you would. And did ;)

    Well, just because you don't like my opinions doesn't make them wrong.

    Because like it or not, making a character OVERLY edgy and dark isn't interesting, it's just ridiculous and even comical.
This discussion has been closed.