Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How much Grimdark is too much?

13468913

Comments

  • Tyrant#1234Tyrant#1234 Registered Users Posts: 4,027

    Abmong said:

    Well, I understand all that pretty well, but like I said, I just don't want CA and GW to turn races like Nippon and Ind into a joke with how ridiculous grimdark they're trying to make them.

    Because as much as SOME people like to all but obsess over the setting being all grimdark 24/7, like you said , there are some silly and ridiculous elements to the setting as well.

    I don't want the setting to go full silly mode where people burst out into song or anything, but simply not be some ridiculous edgy teenager's "grimdark" fanfic either.
    Instead of just saying you don't want them to be too grimdark or grimderp, it's probably more useful to the discussion if you tell us more specifics of what kinds of things you don't want to see them do. Just so we know what the base line is of what you consider too grimdark.
    1234 I declare a thumb war! 5678 I use this hand to mass-debate!
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143


    I like my Warhammer campy, silly and funny. Old school.
    That’s why I love bloodbowl.

    Yeah, I can agree with you on that for the most part.

    Sure, the setting can be plenty serious and that's fine, but having some silly parts won't really ruin the setting as a whole.
  • destroyer67115destroyer67115 Registered Users Posts: 1,357
    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Well, I understand all that pretty well, but like I said, I just don't want CA and GW to turn races like Nippon and Ind into a joke with how ridiculous grimdark they're trying to make them.

    Because as much as SOME people like to all but obsess over the setting being all grimdark 24/7, like you said , there are some silly and ridiculous elements to the setting as well.

    I don't want the setting to go full silly mode where people burst out into song or anything, but simply not be some ridiculous edgy teenager's "grimdark" fanfic either.
    Instead of just saying you don't want them to be too grimdark or grimderp, it's probably more useful to the discussion if you tell us more specifics of what kinds of things you don't want to see them do. Just so we know what the base line is of what you consider too grimdark.
    I think he wants the good stuff. But not the bad.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143
    Abmong said:


    Instead of just saying you don't want them to be too grimdark or grimderp, it's probably more useful to the discussion if you tell us more specifics of what kinds of things you don't want to see them do. Just so we know what the base line is of what you consider too grimdark.

    Well, I'm going to be kinda busy with some real life stuff pretty soon, but I will give some basics of things I don't want to see them do.


    One thing I don't really want to see is races like Ind and Nippon be daemon worshipers or anything that will make people think they're just chaos lite or something like that. I want them to be their own unique things.

    I also don't want them just try to copy certain elements of existing things in the games and setting, like having the Kitsune in Nippon be like Skinwolves from Norsca or some things like that. It just feels kinda lazy to just copy an existing unit like that.

    But I really don't want them to just try to throw in some grotesque monsters into races like Nippon or Ind just for the shock value and nothing else, as that too would just seem very lazy in how edgy and dark it's trying to be.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143

    I think he wants the good stuff. But not the bad.

    Kind of.

    It's not so much that I don't want any dark elements in races like Nippon and Ind, but I just don't want them to have a ton of ridiculously grimdark and grotesque things just for shock value alone, as that would be a pretty lazy route to take.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994

    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Well, I understand all that pretty well, but like I said, I just don't want CA and GW to turn races like Nippon and Ind into a joke with how ridiculous grimdark they're trying to make them.

    Because as much as SOME people like to all but obsess over the setting being all grimdark 24/7, like you said , there are some silly and ridiculous elements to the setting as well.

    I don't want the setting to go full silly mode where people burst out into song or anything, but simply not be some ridiculous edgy teenager's "grimdark" fanfic either.
    Instead of just saying you don't want them to be too grimdark or grimderp, it's probably more useful to the discussion if you tell us more specifics of what kinds of things you don't want to see them do. Just so we know what the base line is of what you consider too grimdark.
    I think he wants the good stuff. But not the bad.
    It's quite a shame that these metrics are so subjective and don't actually abide by any hard rules.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994


    No, you're misrepresenting me and completely ignoring what Warhammer is.

    Grimdark is part of the setting. All the factions are grimdark. Literally all of them. No matter how CA makes Nippon or Khuresh or Ind, they're going to be grimdark.

    No Nemo, that's what you've been doing dude, just accept it.

    You've basically just been going "It's grimdark! It's grimdark! It's grimdark!" when no one disputed that the setting was grimdark or not.

    I just don't want CA to try to make either Nippon or Ind so grimdark that they become a joke, that's all.

    I want them to be done with respect and without trying to just add in pointless edgy nonsense for no reason.
    Yes, it is grimdark, just like how Shadowrun is cyberpunk or how World of Darkness is gothic-punk. People play these games for the grungy, dark, oppressive atmosphere. Warhammer is no different. There's an entire roleplaying game and it's not like Dungeons and Dragons. The game is deliberately difficult and depressing, and that's how people like it.

    Ind and Nippon are going to be grimdark. To what degree, I don't know, or really care, but they're going to be a little bit edgy and dark because that's everyone in the setting. However, Warhammer never got where it is now by "doing it with respect" when it comes to 100% fantastical factions in a dark fantasy setting. That's just not the game.
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 17,215

    Hm. WH:FB is more grimbright than grimdark.

    How so?

    I wouldn't really call Warhammer a super bright and cheery world, though it certainly has its silly moments.
    I think there is enough brightness in the setting to consider it nobledark/grimbright. WH:FB at its core is a mixture of lingering doom, pettiness and small goodness living in the branches of a bountiful, but cracked apple tree, neither on the ground nor in the sun.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143


    Yes, it is grimdark, just like how Shadowrun is cyberpunk or how World of Darkness is gothic-punk. People play these games for the grungy, dark, oppressive atmosphere. Warhammer is no different. There's an entire roleplaying game and it's not like Dungeons and Dragons. The game is deliberately difficult and depressing, and that's how people like it.

    Ind and Nippon are going to be grimdark. To what degree, I don't know, or really care, but they're going to be a little bit edgy and dark because that's everyone in the setting. However, Warhammer never got where it is now by "doing it with respect" when it comes to 100% fantastical factions in a dark fantasy setting. That's just not the game.

    Dude, you know what I meant by "doing it with respect".

    I clearly meant that CA and GW should design and develop Ind and Nippon in particular not only with respect from where they're inspired from, but also not just try to do stuff like rely on shock value and such other lazy marketing tactics and put proper effort into them, you know, without them being Japanese or Indian chaos warriors or something like that, you know, just copying existing stuff.


    Honestly, if Nippon's mostly just humans, I'd like to see them be designed to be somewhat like Hobgoblins from D&D, who are a highly disciplined and martial and lawful evil race. That could be interesting for a mostly human race.

    But I think what they could do with such a version of Nippon would be to make most of their human units be fairly well trained with multiple types of weapons, with the samurai and such more elite troops being the extremes of that.

    Because I would love to see Nippon maybe have fewer units, but many of their units are far more flexible, as they can bring in the Egyptian weapon switching from Troy and allow your basic samurai unit to switch between naginatas and katanas, but they can't do that in melee.

    I just think that that would be so cool to give Nippon something like that.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143


    I think there is enough brightness in the setting to consider it nobledark/grimbright. WH:FB at its core is a mixture of lingering doom, pettiness and small goodness living in the branches of a bountiful, but cracked apple tree, neither on the ground nor in the sun.

    I hadn't thought of it quite like that before. Good point.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994


    Yes, it is grimdark, just like how Shadowrun is cyberpunk or how World of Darkness is gothic-punk. People play these games for the grungy, dark, oppressive atmosphere. Warhammer is no different. There's an entire roleplaying game and it's not like Dungeons and Dragons. The game is deliberately difficult and depressing, and that's how people like it.

    Ind and Nippon are going to be grimdark. To what degree, I don't know, or really care, but they're going to be a little bit edgy and dark because that's everyone in the setting. However, Warhammer never got where it is now by "doing it with respect" when it comes to 100% fantastical factions in a dark fantasy setting. That's just not the game.

    Dude, you know what I meant by "doing it with respect".

    I clearly meant that CA and GW should design and develop Ind and Nippon in particular not only with respect from where they're inspired from, but also not just try to do stuff like rely on shock value and such other lazy marketing tactics and put proper effort into them, you know, without them being Japanese or Indian chaos warriors or something like that, you know, just copying existing stuff.


    Honestly, if Nippon's mostly just humans, I'd like to see them be designed to be somewhat like Hobgoblins from D&D, who are a highly disciplined and martial and lawful evil race. That could be interesting for a mostly human race.

    But I think what they could do with such a version of Nippon would be to make most of their human units be fairly well trained with multiple types of weapons, with the samurai and such more elite troops being the extremes of that.

    Because I would love to see Nippon maybe have fewer units, but many of their units are far more flexible, as they can bring in the Egyptian weapon switching from Troy and allow your basic samurai unit to switch between naginatas and katanas, but they can't do that in melee.

    I just think that that would be so cool to give Nippon something like that.
    Have you not been paying attention to any of the factions? None of them are respectful, at all. Early GW have stated that most of their inspiration for most of their factions are just British stereotypes of themselves or other countries.

    Greenskins are English football hooligans and bullies, Dwarfs are Yorkshire/Scottish proles, High Elves and Dark Elves are just rich Tories who think the British Empire was a good idea, and Halflings are the most offensive takes you can have of country folk mixed with Romani/Traveler stereotypes. GW has never been subtle or even tasteful, though they've been moving their various factions away from their source material into their own worldbuilding, but the elements are still there.

    Like have you not seen the Skaven? Or the fact that Bretonnia is just a massive middle finger to France and the overly-glamourized obsession with Arthurian legend? It's all at least partially satire in how silly these factions are.

    When GW decides to work on Nippon and Khuresh, they're going to go ham on them. We've seen it with Cathay and Kislev with the Old World, as well as the Vampire Coast, and we have no reason to believe that other factions will be treated any differently. They may very well be Chaos or Chaos-influenced factions, because Chaos is one of the main forces in the entire setting.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143


    Have you not been paying attention to any of the factions? None of them are respectful, at all. Early GW have stated that most of their inspiration for most of their factions are just British stereotypes of themselves or other countries.

    Greenskins are English football hooligans and bullies, Dwarfs are Yorkshire/Scottish proles, High Elves and Dark Elves are just rich Tories who think the British Empire was a good idea, and Halflings are the most offensive takes you can have of country folk mixed with Romani/Traveler stereotypes. GW has never been subtle or even tasteful, though they've been moving their various factions away from their source material into their own worldbuilding, but the elements are still there.

    Like have you not seen the Skaven? Or the fact that Bretonnia is just a massive middle finger to France and the overly-glamourized obsession with Arthurian legend? It's all at least partially satire in how silly these factions are.

    When GW decides to work on Nippon and Khuresh, they're going to go ham on them. We've seen it with Cathay and Kislev with the Old World, as well as the Vampire Coast, and we have no reason to believe that other factions will be treated any differently. They may very well be Chaos or Chaos-influenced factions, because Chaos is one of the main forces in the entire setting.

    No offense Nemo, but I could ask you the same thing.

    I'm not talking about the stereotypes and such that much of Warhammer was originally based off of, but rather treating the development and designing of these races with respect, you know, not making them ridiculous in one extreme or another.

    And stuff like Nippon and Ind are obviously NOT going to racist stereotypes and such, but I just want to see them be a tad more original than chaos warriors who use different types of swords or something.

    I mean, we already have Khuresh as a far eastern chaos race, so I don't think we need the other two to be strictly chaos related.

    I just hope that Nippon and Ind aren't chaos aligned races, as that just seems really lazy.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,122

    More tongue in cheek than bright.

    Agreed.

    I like 50-50.
    Silly and funny combined with serious and dark.

    I don't know if I'm quite like that, but I do think that not everything in Warhammer NEEDS to be as serious and evil as the chaos worshipers all the time either.
    I like my Warhammer campy, silly and funny. Old school.
    That’s why I love bloodbowl.
    I love campy stuff.

    It's kinda why I like AoS now.... it's got grimdark elements, but mostly it's just super dumb.
    "It's no fun fighting people weaker than you." - The Beast

    "There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Disciple of the Drybrush

  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,395
    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,122
    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    "It's no fun fighting people weaker than you." - The Beast

    "There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Disciple of the Drybrush

  • Caffynated#2235Caffynated#2235 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,463

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Grimdark



  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Let's just ignore the flagellants, death wizards and really all wizards given that they're destined to go insane or corrupted, free militia company who canonically are often forced to fight against their will, knights of Morr, witch hunters, the hyper zealous warrior priests, and the fact that the average state trooper wears armor that still has bloodstains on it.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,650

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Let's just ignore the flagellants, death wizards and really all wizards given that they're destined to go insane or corrupted, free militia company who canonically are often forced to fight against their will, knights of Morr, witch hunters, the hyper zealous warrior priests, and the fact that the average state trooper wears armor that still has bloodstains on it.
    You know what, WoW had all those things. It had every single one of those things. Corrupted warlocks messing with felfire, it had flagellants, it had necromancers, it had knightly orders, it had inquisitors, it had zealous priests who were incredibly xenophobic, it even had a demonic overpower trying to gobble up the planets and killed and destroyed countless races.

    Would anyone here call Azeroth from World of Warcraft grimdark?

    There are levels, and themes and frankly I think people get skewed here. Dark Sun from D&D, grimdark? Faerun from D&D had that?

    How about Warlord from that old CCG, elves were unforgiveable necromancers and the primary empire was the stronger foe, only so called good guys were weak and had a dark underpinning themselves but I don't know if I'd call it grimdark either.

    In fact, all these things people are quoting unique to Warhammer, particularly fantasy are note remotely so.

    Grim dark needs more than just some evil under tone. Sorry Empire. This is why 40k is so much better of an example. It's not just some undertone it's outright. The Empire is a flawed theocratic fascist eugenic mass murdering cesspool that treats its people like dirt. Yet they are the 'good guy'. 40K is grimdark, 40k gives the Judge Dredd feel where the whole world is crap, the Robocop where everything is corrupt and the hero doesn't change the system even despite being victorious.

    A peasant is just a peasant in the Empire, their are merchants who live like merchants of earth. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is more akin to realism with some dark themes. Chaos gets pretty dark, Dark Elves just get laughably comedic. Anytime someone says Malus Darkblade with a serious face I remember dialogue from the novels and then I snicker.

    There is need for flaws in Ind and Nippon just because Warhammer Fantasy is realism(to a degree).

    In fact, this is where I think Itharus misses the mark by multiple miles. Warhammer Fantasy is grimdark in areas, realist in others, comedic, cartoonish, cliche, heroic, high fantasy, low fantasy, bravery, cowardice. In fact it's almost as if the world was nuanced. Sometimes well written, sometimes badly written.

    And it's funny that people can be so un nuanced trying to pigeon hole it into lil cookie cutter points of absurdity.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994
    Nyxilis said:

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Let's just ignore the flagellants, death wizards and really all wizards given that they're destined to go insane or corrupted, free militia company who canonically are often forced to fight against their will, knights of Morr, witch hunters, the hyper zealous warrior priests, and the fact that the average state trooper wears armor that still has bloodstains on it.
    You know what, WoW had all those things. It had every single one of those things. Corrupted warlocks messing with felfire, it had flagellants, it had necromancers, it had knightly orders, it had inquisitors, it had zealous priests who were incredibly xenophobic, it even had a demonic overpower trying to gobble up the planets and killed and destroyed countless races.

    Would anyone here call Azeroth from World of Warcraft grimdark?

    There are levels, and themes and frankly I think people get skewed here. Dark Sun from D&D, grimdark? Faerun from D&D had that?

    How about Warlord from that old CCG, elves were unforgiveable necromancers and the primary empire was the stronger foe, only so called good guys were weak and had a dark underpinning themselves but I don't know if I'd call it grimdark either.

    In fact, all these things people are quoting unique to Warhammer, particularly fantasy are note remotely so.

    Grim dark needs more than just some evil under tone. Sorry Empire. This is why 40k is so much better of an example. It's not just some undertone it's outright. The Empire is a flawed theocratic fascist eugenic mass murdering cesspool that treats its people like dirt. Yet they are the 'good guy'. 40K is grimdark, 40k gives the Judge Dredd feel where the whole world is crap, the Robocop where everything is corrupt and the hero doesn't change the system even despite being victorious.

    A peasant is just a peasant in the Empire, their are merchants who live like merchants of earth. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is more akin to realism with some dark themes. Chaos gets pretty dark, Dark Elves just get laughably comedic. Anytime someone says Malus Darkblade with a serious face I remember dialogue from the novels and then I snicker.

    There is need for flaws in Ind and Nippon just because Warhammer Fantasy is realism(to a degree).

    In fact, this is where I think Itharus misses the mark by multiple miles. Warhammer Fantasy is grimdark in areas, realist in others, comedic, cartoonish, cliche, heroic, high fantasy, low fantasy, bravery, cowardice. In fact it's almost as if the world was nuanced. Sometimes well written, sometimes badly written.

    And it's funny that people can be so un nuanced trying to pigeon hole it into lil cookie cutter points of absurdity.
    And people would argue that WoW since Cataclysm has gotten darker in tone and characterization. So what?

    Religious zealotry is part of the Empire. Severe paranoia of magicians and non-humans other than Elves is part of the Empire. Chaotic and political corruption is baked into the Empire's foundations. The Empire is always two steps away from falling apart and it's usually due to its own leadership.

    Like nothing you're saying is really detracting from what I'm pointing out here. All you're really saying is that other games are grimdark too, which is a phenomenon that has been happening.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143

    I love campy stuff.

    It's kinda why I like AoS now.... it's got grimdark elements, but mostly it's just super dumb.

    If you like campy stuff, then you'll love this

    guy.

    I honestly want to see a whole series or movie or something about this goofball's misadventures.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,650

    Nyxilis said:

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Let's just ignore the flagellants, death wizards and really all wizards given that they're destined to go insane or corrupted, free militia company who canonically are often forced to fight against their will, knights of Morr, witch hunters, the hyper zealous warrior priests, and the fact that the average state trooper wears armor that still has bloodstains on it.
    You know what, WoW had all those things. It had every single one of those things. Corrupted warlocks messing with felfire, it had flagellants, it had necromancers, it had knightly orders, it had inquisitors, it had zealous priests who were incredibly xenophobic, it even had a demonic overpower trying to gobble up the planets and killed and destroyed countless races.

    Would anyone here call Azeroth from World of Warcraft grimdark?

    There are levels, and themes and frankly I think people get skewed here. Dark Sun from D&D, grimdark? Faerun from D&D had that?

    How about Warlord from that old CCG, elves were unforgiveable necromancers and the primary empire was the stronger foe, only so called good guys were weak and had a dark underpinning themselves but I don't know if I'd call it grimdark either.

    In fact, all these things people are quoting unique to Warhammer, particularly fantasy are note remotely so.

    Grim dark needs more than just some evil under tone. Sorry Empire. This is why 40k is so much better of an example. It's not just some undertone it's outright. The Empire is a flawed theocratic fascist eugenic mass murdering cesspool that treats its people like dirt. Yet they are the 'good guy'. 40K is grimdark, 40k gives the Judge Dredd feel where the whole world is crap, the Robocop where everything is corrupt and the hero doesn't change the system even despite being victorious.

    A peasant is just a peasant in the Empire, their are merchants who live like merchants of earth. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is more akin to realism with some dark themes. Chaos gets pretty dark, Dark Elves just get laughably comedic. Anytime someone says Malus Darkblade with a serious face I remember dialogue from the novels and then I snicker.

    There is need for flaws in Ind and Nippon just because Warhammer Fantasy is realism(to a degree).

    In fact, this is where I think Itharus misses the mark by multiple miles. Warhammer Fantasy is grimdark in areas, realist in others, comedic, cartoonish, cliche, heroic, high fantasy, low fantasy, bravery, cowardice. In fact it's almost as if the world was nuanced. Sometimes well written, sometimes badly written.

    And it's funny that people can be so un nuanced trying to pigeon hole it into lil cookie cutter points of absurdity.
    And people would argue that WoW since Cataclysm has gotten darker in tone and characterization. So what?

    Religious zealotry is part of the Empire. Severe paranoia of magicians and non-humans other than Elves is part of the Empire. Chaotic and political corruption is baked into the Empire's foundations. The Empire is always two steps away from falling apart and it's usually due to its own leadership.

    Like nothing you're saying is really detracting from what I'm pointing out here. All you're really saying is that other games are grimdark too, which is a phenomenon that has been happening.
    So what? Did you get that point? Because darker tone? You do know the next expansion was Pandaria right?

    Religious zealotry is in WoW, it's in Elder Scrolls which I'll argue gets every bit as dark as Warhammer Fantasy. The Empires corruption is basic, it's real life basic. In fact Karl Franz is virtually benign compared to rulers of actual european kingdoms. Particularly those of the Holy Roman Empire areas.

    And what I'm saying is nobody calls WoW grimdark. In fact WoW routinely gets accusations that it's cartoonish, comedic, cheesy, soft, fantasy for kids. You have a whole range of players play ESO because they want an 'fantasy for adults'. Mature, realistic. Despite the fact WoW has every single element you named.

    My point is, that the supposed grimdark lable here for fantasy is really kinda shrug worthy. In fact I consider Warhammer Fantasy to be a standard fantasy world. I mean it ripped the HE from tolkien, it borrowed elements from a lot of others that are considered bog standard fantasy. Heros still win, in fact they win a lot, life in the Empire is directly comparable to the Holy Roman Empire.

    I think there should be realistic and dark elements in Warhammer, anyone that thinks I'm trying not to frankly has blinders on or is just ignoring like some wounded beast. Favorite race is Skaven, they're terrible, awful, violent, disgusting, creatures. They also drive giant hamster wheels and use things like the 'far squeaker'. They're names are puns, they're jittery lil comedic monkies that kill themselves over cheese in a canon story.

    Because, Warhammer Fantasy is a nuanced pile of many themes and some people here think things gotta be edgy in the wrong ways sometimes.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143
    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Well, it's not that grimdark "isn't my thing", it's more so that I don't want Nippon and Ind in particular to be designed in such a way that they end up being grimderpy nonsense.

    And I find it pretty selfish to act like WHFB is yours and yours alone, and it's pretty ridiculous to say the least to act like if something isn't super overly edgy and grimdark that it will somehow completely ruin the setting.


    Making races like Ind and Nippon not just wannabe copies of existing races or factions isn't going to ruin Warhammer for everyone, just those few edge lords who want all races to basically be overly edgy chaos warriors.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143
    Nyxilis said:

    You actually make a great point Nyxilis.

    There are in fact levels to stuff like Grimdark and it's ridiculous for anyone to act like there can only be one way for grimdarkness and all to work within the setting.

    And while I haven't read tons of novels and such, I do agree, the Dark Elves do feel rather comical in how evil they try to be.

    I know I've said this before, but I just don't want races like Nippon and Ind to be little more than different looking chaos warriors or dark elves who are human or whatever. I want them to really feel like their own unique races rather than copies of existing ones.

    I think there are MANY different ways to design Ind and Nippon, which I think is the biggest hurdle for GW and CA to get over. Just which way do they choose to go with for them?
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    edited July 18
    i like the couple of people saying wh fantsy should be grim derp as 40 k . Because that mean wh fantasy has no identy beyond just being fantasy 40k .


    No it shouldn't be that it should be like 5 th ed where there were balance of grim dark and normal mixed in as thats the identy of fantasy .

    going grim derp didn't help fantasy at all as it got over shadowed by 40 k trash
    Post edited by Grom_the_Paunch#8146 on

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,204

    Hm. WH:FB is more grimbright than grimdark.

    How so?

    I wouldn't really call Warhammer a super bright and cheery world, though it certainly has its silly moments.
    I think there is enough brightness in the setting to consider it nobledark/grimbright. WH:FB at its core is a mixture of lingering doom, pettiness and small goodness living in the branches of a bountiful, but cracked apple tree, neither on the ground nor in the sun.
    It's probably the case that people have different interpretations of what the noble/grim scale means and what the bright/dark means, but as I understand it the former was a description of the general demeanor of the characters and populous of the setting, while the latter was descriptive of the state of the world itself. Hence the Lord of the Rings is often called nobledark because although the world itself is in dire peril, the characters are marked by the virtues of hope, courage and love. Conversely, most cyberpunk settings are bright in the fact that there is endless possibilities due to the advancement of technology, yet grim because the people are often inhabiting a decadent post-religion society where people derive attempt to derive meaning from hedonism, VR, drugs, etc. and greed and corruption is rampant.

    This image is pretty popular on the web, and I'm inclined to agree with it overall.

    Also just for fun, I found this graph which has High and Low fantasy as a separate axis. Not sure that I agree with everything on here, but it's interesting to gauge where my own tastes lie.

  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 4,143
    edited July 18
    saweendra said:

    i like the couple of people saying wh fantsy should be grim derp as 40 k . Because that mean wh fantasy has no identy beyond just being fantasy 40k .


    No it shouldn't be that it should be like 5 th ed where there were balance of grim dark and normal mixed in as thats the identy of fantasy .

    going grim derp didn't help fantasy at all as it got over shadowed by 40 k trash

    I wouldn't say that all of 40k stuff is trash, but a lot of it can be pretty grimderpy.

    And I agree with you that it needs to be balanced for Fantasy so that it not only can stand up as its own thing, but also so that it doesn't become as ridiculous as some stuff in 40k can be.
    Post edited by Grom_the_Paunch#8146 on
  • Kannabyss420#5579Kannabyss420#5579 Perth, AustraliaRegistered Users Posts: 92
    As a long time Warhammer Fantasy fanboy, I was severely put off by 40k for the gatekeeping / neck-beardism / intellectual elitist douche-canoe's, despite my initial love for it, because of this perception that EVERYTHING MUST be grimdark in the setting.
    For 40k, this is fine, and I even applaud just how good writers have made it so incredibly Grimdark. I'm reminded of the short story about the Grey Knights chapter and how they sanctify their weapons and armour , in particular, of how a single bolt shell is sanctified in the blood of a good person who has to not only be sacrificed, but has to be a WILLING sacrifice, really makes 40k what it is.

    For fantasy, sure it had "grim-darkness", to an extent, but...
    "In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, there is only war"

    This is where the whole concept of naming the setting "Grim-Dark" originated from. Or at least, where pop-culture has drawn inspiration from to label it as such.
    Warhammer fantasy is more black comedy, it has never taken itself as seriously as 40k, and people who believe that Warhammer NEEDS to be as Grim-Dark as 40k are just wrong, plain and simple. I try to avoid such statements of certainty, but anyone getting angry about how fantasy isn't Grim-Dark enough needs to stick with 40k, and the evidence to support my bold claim is backed up in all of the fantasy lore.

    Two words: Blood-Bowl.
    It's in the same world and timeline, and rest assured that Blood-Bowl was being played as the End-Times were happening.
    Honour? Death? I will bring to you the honour of Death so you may understand such concepts more clearly!
  • RomeoReject#1666RomeoReject#1666 Registered Users Posts: 2,093
    So, I'm prepared in advance to get downvoted all to hell, but: I've always found GW's excessive fascination on being "super Grim Dark" to make for some bad writing, as a lot of the time it ends up becoming Grim Derp.

    I am AOK with some factions (Lizardmen, Cathay and High Elves) being normal, logical factions that don't require everything to be the worst thing ever. Nippon, if it ever comes (Of which I personally wouldn't do, but that's just me), shouldn't be shackled with the requirement to be dark for darknesses sake, as there no lore to tie it to such a thing. Ind, in comparison, I believe probably needs a little tragedy (Think Bretonnia level), in order to maintain consistency with their lore. They frequently the target of raids, have Beastmen nearby that are neutral at best to them and yet, have a healthy economy and trade. Things aren't great, things aren't horrible.
  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,059
    I think every Warhammer setting benefits from equal amounts of comedy and tragedy.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,994
    edited July 18
    saweendra said:

    i like the couple of people saying wh fantsy should be grim derp as 40 k . Because that mean wh fantasy has no identy beyond just being fantasy 40k .


    No it shouldn't be that it should be like 5 th ed where there were balance of grim dark and normal mixed in as thats the identy of fantasy .

    going grim derp didn't help fantasy at all as it got over shadowed by 40 k trash

    Literally no one is arguing for that, but go ahead insulting strangers' intelligences online. Makes you look really smart.

    As a long time Warhammer Fantasy fanboy, I was severely put off by 40k for the gatekeeping / neck-beardism / intellectual elitist douche-canoe's, despite my initial love for it, because of this perception that EVERYTHING MUST be grimdark in the setting.
    For 40k, this is fine, and I even applaud just how good writers have made it so incredibly Grimdark. I'm reminded of the short story about the Grey Knights chapter and how they sanctify their weapons and armour , in particular, of how a single bolt shell is sanctified in the blood of a good person who has to not only be sacrificed, but has to be a WILLING sacrifice, really makes 40k what it is.

    For fantasy, sure it had "grim-darkness", to an extent, but...
    "In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, there is only war"

    This is where the whole concept of naming the setting "Grim-Dark" originated from. Or at least, where pop-culture has drawn inspiration from to label it as such.
    Warhammer fantasy is more black comedy, it has never taken itself as seriously as 40k, and people who believe that Warhammer NEEDS to be as Grim-Dark as 40k are just wrong, plain and simple. I try to avoid such statements of certainty, but anyone getting angry about how fantasy isn't Grim-Dark enough needs to stick with 40k, and the evidence to support my bold claim is backed up in all of the fantasy lore.

    Two words: Blood-Bowl.
    It's in the same world and timeline, and rest assured that Blood-Bowl was being played as the End-Times were happening.

    Again, no one is arguing that Warhammer has to be as grimdark as 40k. Warhammer Fantasy however is a grimdark setting. That's not something you can debate. The degree and whether if it goes into comedic or grimderp levels, sure, but it's part of the setting.
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Itharus said:

    I'd like to add that at this point everyone's entrenched up in this thread and just repeating themselves constantly and this whole thread should probably be put to rest while everyone's still getting along XD For my part, I'm done here cuz... said what there is to say. But of course, one parting shot:

    WHFB is grimdark. There is no other way. If grimdark is not your thing, WH is a bad franchise to try and invest yourself in. If you wish to make WH something it is not, that is your selfishness trying to take away from others what they enjoy just to amuse yourself. Better to make a new and competing product that is less grim, than it is to ruin the good times of others who are enjoying what they have. It's never right to take away from others because you are jealous of the joy they have.

    Toodles!

    Grimdark




    Let's just ignore the flagellants, death wizards and really all wizards given that they're destined to go insane or corrupted, free militia company who canonically are often forced to fight against their will, knights of Morr, witch hunters, the hyper zealous warrior priests, and the fact that the average state trooper wears armor that still has bloodstains on it.
    You know what, WoW had all those things. It had every single one of those things. Corrupted warlocks messing with felfire, it had flagellants, it had necromancers, it had knightly orders, it had inquisitors, it had zealous priests who were incredibly xenophobic, it even had a demonic overpower trying to gobble up the planets and killed and destroyed countless races.

    Would anyone here call Azeroth from World of Warcraft grimdark?

    There are levels, and themes and frankly I think people get skewed here. Dark Sun from D&D, grimdark? Faerun from D&D had that?

    How about Warlord from that old CCG, elves were unforgiveable necromancers and the primary empire was the stronger foe, only so called good guys were weak and had a dark underpinning themselves but I don't know if I'd call it grimdark either.

    In fact, all these things people are quoting unique to Warhammer, particularly fantasy are note remotely so.

    Grim dark needs more than just some evil under tone. Sorry Empire. This is why 40k is so much better of an example. It's not just some undertone it's outright. The Empire is a flawed theocratic fascist eugenic mass murdering cesspool that treats its people like dirt. Yet they are the 'good guy'. 40K is grimdark, 40k gives the Judge Dredd feel where the whole world is crap, the Robocop where everything is corrupt and the hero doesn't change the system even despite being victorious.

    A peasant is just a peasant in the Empire, their are merchants who live like merchants of earth. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is more akin to realism with some dark themes. Chaos gets pretty dark, Dark Elves just get laughably comedic. Anytime someone says Malus Darkblade with a serious face I remember dialogue from the novels and then I snicker.

    There is need for flaws in Ind and Nippon just because Warhammer Fantasy is realism(to a degree).

    In fact, this is where I think Itharus misses the mark by multiple miles. Warhammer Fantasy is grimdark in areas, realist in others, comedic, cartoonish, cliche, heroic, high fantasy, low fantasy, bravery, cowardice. In fact it's almost as if the world was nuanced. Sometimes well written, sometimes badly written.

    And it's funny that people can be so un nuanced trying to pigeon hole it into lil cookie cutter points of absurdity.
    And people would argue that WoW since Cataclysm has gotten darker in tone and characterization. So what?

    Religious zealotry is part of the Empire. Severe paranoia of magicians and non-humans other than Elves is part of the Empire. Chaotic and political corruption is baked into the Empire's foundations. The Empire is always two steps away from falling apart and it's usually due to its own leadership.

    Like nothing you're saying is really detracting from what I'm pointing out here. All you're really saying is that other games are grimdark too, which is a phenomenon that has been happening.
    So what? Did you get that point? Because darker tone? You do know the next expansion was Pandaria right?

    Religious zealotry is in WoW, it's in Elder Scrolls which I'll argue gets every bit as dark as Warhammer Fantasy. The Empires corruption is basic, it's real life basic. In fact Karl Franz is virtually benign compared to rulers of actual european kingdoms. Particularly those of the Holy Roman Empire areas.

    And what I'm saying is nobody calls WoW grimdark. In fact WoW routinely gets accusations that it's cartoonish, comedic, cheesy, soft, fantasy for kids. You have a whole range of players play ESO because they want an 'fantasy for adults'. Mature, realistic. Despite the fact WoW has every single element you named.

    My point is, that the supposed grimdark lable here for fantasy is really kinda shrug worthy. In fact I consider Warhammer Fantasy to be a standard fantasy world. I mean it ripped the HE from tolkien, it borrowed elements from a lot of others that are considered bog standard fantasy. Heros still win, in fact they win a lot, life in the Empire is directly comparable to the Holy Roman Empire.

    I think there should be realistic and dark elements in Warhammer, anyone that thinks I'm trying not to frankly has blinders on or is just ignoring like some wounded beast. Favorite race is Skaven, they're terrible, awful, violent, disgusting, creatures. They also drive giant hamster wheels and use things like the 'far squeaker'. They're names are puns, they're jittery lil comedic monkies that kill themselves over cheese in a canon story.

    Because, Warhammer Fantasy is a nuanced pile of many themes and some people here think things gotta be edgy in the wrong ways sometimes.
    Shock and surprise, you can have nuance and grimdark at the same time. You have this consistent habit on arguing for things people don't actually disagree with. Look at any knightly order, look at most space marine chapters. They're nuanced, they're constantly balancing their ideals and goals with the crushing reality of the world they operate in. That can be grimdark.

    No, Warcraft is not grimdark. It's high fantasy. It can be dark at times, but it's not a central theme. Same thing for Elder Scrolls which is more realistic or even scientific fantasy, especially when you get into the metaphysics.

    Warhammer however since it really took off has been a grimdark setting, both to satirize dark fantasy and to engage with it. It's part of the setting and it's part of how the factions work. Pointing that out, stating that Warhammer is a grimdark dark, is not an endorsement for Drukhari-levels of grimdark nonsense even if there's an in-universe justification for why Drukhari do what they do beyond just for the evulz.
    Post edited by Grom_the_Paunch#8146 on
This discussion has been closed.