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Predatory instinct cannot stay this way

NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead MemberRegistered Users Posts: 825
edited August 23 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
In current state, a drawback was taken and made into personal mini-murderous prowess.

Half of the roster of LZM have it. Make it trigger at 25% or just nerf the effect, it is just insanely good.

You were worried about +1 attack buffs on sisters of slaughter? How about if all lizardmen mid and top infantry, cavalry and monsters receive 10 attack, +15% charge and ph res 5% after they get down to 50%hp? Especially spear or halberd infantry getting that insane attack buff.

Please explain me how is that ok?

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Comments

  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 23
    This must be some kind of joke when martial only deactivates at 25%
    Liz change is absolutely nothing
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  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    HE have terrible hp, lizardmen have great hp. Artillery, spells and ranged attacks pack a bigger punch on HE.

    Predatory instinct should be 10%-15% attack buff and not 10 attack buff.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    lol it only effects saurs based units

    which for the most part slow except for cav but cav in general have poor capture weight .
    so its buff to saurs infantry since you can not cycle them in and out of resummoning to capture point fast .

    so this is to promote them been picked for battle where they might have to fight to the end.


    see all of these nonsensical balance changes have a reason its called domination you can thank its fans and CA for making the game worse for every one else

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    edited August 23
    @saweendra

    bastiladons, kroxigors, stegadons and razordons also have it. So that is not only saurus.

    And on some of them getting +10 attack is getting like 35% attack increase.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327

    @saweendra

    bastiladons, kroxigors, stegadons and razordons also have it. So that is not only saurus.

    And on some of them getting +10 attack is getting like 35% attack increase.

    they only have it because they changed what the tag does not changed how it effected units and it was most likely aimed at saurs buff

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    Here is my evidence they gave it to knights of the ebon claw which is a expensive ror melee cav.

    So you can not hyper cycle through the unit in dom.

    So CA gave this buff to make them useful in a latter state of the game


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,000
    Yeah the inclusion of +10 MA is quite nutty with such an easy condition.

    Annoyingly it's a nice buff for the cold one cavalry who struggled but for the rest of the lizard lizardmen units it's overkill. I'd like them to lower it substantially (+5 might be okay, maybe with an MA nerf to Saurus). What's really frustrating is that CA had to go out of their way to add Primal Instincts to Temple Guard just to keep pace with the buffed Saurus. CA was aware of how much power this added before this patch but instead of reeling it back they just added it to temple guard and called it a day.

    I can see why they wanted to remove rampage since it was largely disliked by players and why they'd interpret the ability as a conditional buff since predatory fighter was a conditional buff on the table top, but the numbers selected are obviously overkill.
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,072
    An absolutely crazy buff. I have no idea what on earth was the thinking behind it. Its a huge buff on a superb faction for no cost.

    At least there used to be a minor downside to lizards.. Now just enjoy the extra benefit when your near unbreakable-cost-superefficient saurus get low in HP
  • Pippington#5795Pippington#5795 Registered Users Posts: 2,379
    They have added it to stegs and bastis too. The original reason for creating PI has been left so far behind that CA can't even remember it any more.

    If it's not there as a wrapper for rampage, PI should just be deleted. The buffs were included because people were frustrated that the "unique racial mechanic" was purely negative. If you're no longer trying to offset that downside then just drop the ability! Saurus being tenacious and fighty is perfectly well represented by their base stats, they don't need a completely uncosted buff to bring that aspect of the fantasy across. And I'd argue that as an ability that just fiddles with stats while combat is ongoing it does nothing to make them more unique - the difference in player experience between this & just giving them a stat buff of half the values in the ability is extremely difficult to notice.


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  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    Given how they madly buffed helf prowess, this realy isnt an issue anymore
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  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 6,123
    edited August 24
    yst said:

    Given how they madly buffed helf prowess, this realy isnt an issue anymore

    Well the game is not about just these 2 factions. Is it the DLC team murdering balance further though? Not surprising considering the powercreep we've had in DLCs.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 24


    Well the game is not about just these 2 factions. Is it the DLC team murdering balance further though? Not surprising considering the powercreep we've had in DLCs.

    Not much of a powercreep at all. New factions have all been pretty weak compared to the old.

    The new addition just makes them finally viable, i mean hell most of those choas factions doesnt even have chaff, now they r getting maras and horseman as well.

    Kislev, Cathay and orges all have been pretty mediocre, I mean sure they works but not even close to being a powerhouse. More like on the average line getting by

    I had high hopes on them upon release but nah they just looks like weak factions, i mean i can already think of 5 factions that just autowin against orges barely needing u to lift a finger lol

    Not even sure what powercreep ppl r refering to, like which of these new factions r considered good
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  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    edited August 27
    yst, if you like comparing unit so much, why aren't you testing how new saurus overlords perform at the moment?
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508

    They have added it to stegs and bastis too. The original reason for creating PI has been left so far behind that CA can't even remember it any more.

    If it's not there as a wrapper for rampage, PI should just be deleted. The buffs were included because people were frustrated that the "unique racial mechanic" was purely negative. If you're no longer trying to offset that downside then just drop the ability! Saurus being tenacious and fighty is perfectly well represented by their base stats, they don't need a completely uncosted buff to bring that aspect of the fantasy across. And I'd argue that as an ability that just fiddles with stats while combat is ongoing it does nothing to make them more unique - the difference in player experience between this & just giving them a stat buff of half the values in the ability is extremely difficult to notice.

    While not a good implementation it is sort of like reverse martial prowess which can present some tactical implications related to how one works to finish off wounded lizard units. Would maybe be more interesting if it came with a small md nerf.

    As for the buff it was unnecessary but people should keep in mind they already got +8 ma in wh2 so it’s not that big a deal.
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    Stegadons and temple guard did not have that +8ma. Now they have +10 ma.

    Also the that buff came with rampage which was significant in case if unit was ranged nuked.

    Best it should be removed completely in current state, or in worst case made to activate at 25% of health with bonuses toned down.
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,072
    An MD nerf to go with it would indeed be more like it and interesting, as you say at the moment it's just a free buff
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 28
    Hardly impressive, saurus getting owned by overbuffed silverins



    Without the instincts it wouldve been such a massacre
    Its 57 models vs 31 models at that stage already, no chance for those saurus whatsoever


    They even managed to ranked up lol!


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  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508

    Stegadons and temple guard did not have that +8ma. Now they have +10 ma.

    Also the that buff came with rampage which was significant in case if unit was ranged nuked.

    Best it should be removed completely in current state, or in worst case made to activate at 25% of health with bonuses toned down.

    temple guard i agree that's too extreme. I think adding -4 MD to the ability globally might make it more interesting.
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    While I agree it is a bit much, it is hardly the most OP thing in the game right now, not even close.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,849
    It's pretty strong but it's not about it being OP.

    In Tabletop, Predatory Fighter gave attack boosts while making making the unit harder to control.
    In Tabeltop, Cold Blooded gave every lizardman unit excellent morale and high likelyhood to rally.

    In TWW2, all Predatory Fighter did was make your units harder to control. It had literally no upside.
    In TWW2, cold blooded healed you... which I guess increases your leadership, seems weird, whatever. Then that was too strong so they made it so it weakened you while it healed. That was still too strong so they made it only remove rampage and give leadership. All that left saurus with was a rampage with no benefits and an activated ability that didn't do much except stop rampage. Both abilities could have just been flat out removed completely and the faction would be more fun to play.

    "The Point" of Predatory fighter is to make some units stronger but harder to control. If it doesn't make them harder to control, you don't need to have an ability. Just make them stronger. Give them +5 attack all the time, remove the ability, and be done with it. It has no reason to exist right now. It adds nothing to gameplay, it's just a thing that happens. Might as well just remove it.
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  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,211
    @Kayosiv

    This is why I've advocated for years that Preadatory Fighter should be +MA and Rampage but only when WinningCombat you loose control of them because they're to busy kicking keister and kick keister that much harder.

    This is Just CA being stupid... implementing things poorly do to lack of imagination and then fixing them with an even greater lack of imagination.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    Whether or not Saurus Warriors lose to Silverin Guard is not the point. That may be an argument to take a look at Silverin Guard as well.

    Saurus Warriors are a bit too strong right now.
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    It is not the Saurus that is at fault it is predatory instincts on HALF a roster.

    If it was just saurus, it would be fine probably. You cannot have a buff of +10 attack on half their roster.

    @Kayosiv in Wh2, predatory instincts gave buff, when unit began rampaging.

    I wonder why they touched this skill. It was just fine as it was in Wh2.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 29

    Whether or not Saurus Warriors lose to Silverin Guard is not the point. That may be an argument to take a look at Silverin Guard as well.

    Saurus Warriors are a bit too strong right now.

    Theres no evidence whatsoever to back that.

    Performs what they should be in the same class of chaos warriors and the gods variants, ork biguns, bersekers, tomb guards etc. Even dumb white lions got massively overbuffed by the new martial.

    Any of those $850 gods chaos warrior have no problem destroying saurus, which rightfully pits them where they belong at $800, plain and simple
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  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,849



    @Kayosiv in Wh2, predatory instincts gave buff, when unit began rampaging.

    Did it? Thanks for the reminder, I must have forgotten.

    It's a whole another issue that CA gave predatory fighter to units that never had it on the tabletop. That's just weird.
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  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    yst said:

    Whether or not Saurus Warriors lose to Silverin Guard is not the point. That may be an argument to take a look at Silverin Guard as well.

    Saurus Warriors are a bit too strong right now.

    Theres no evidence whatsoever to back that.

    Performs what they should be in the same class of chaos warriors and the gods variants, ork biguns, bersekers, tomb guards etc. Even dumb white lions got massively overbuffed by the new martial.

    Any of those $850 gods chaos warrior have no problem destroying saurus, which rightfully pits them where they belong at $800, plain and simple
    Wardancers win against White Lions but lose to Saurus Warriors.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 29

    Wardancers win against White Lions but lose to Saurus Warriors.

    Not really lose, its more like a draw/winif u press the iwin button
    It was a decisive win without the current instinct, so pretty much demonstrated they kinda need it to face new liz challenges
    Post edited by yst#1879 on
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  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508

    yst said:

    Whether or not Saurus Warriors lose to Silverin Guard is not the point. That may be an argument to take a look at Silverin Guard as well.

    Saurus Warriors are a bit too strong right now.

    Theres no evidence whatsoever to back that.

    Performs what they should be in the same class of chaos warriors and the gods variants, ork biguns, bersekers, tomb guards etc. Even dumb white lions got massively overbuffed by the new martial.

    Any of those $850 gods chaos warrior have no problem destroying saurus, which rightfully pits them where they belong at $800, plain and simple
    Wardancers win against White Lions but lose to Saurus Warriors.
    Wardancers are and always have been a bit UP and saurus warriors are a little too strong or "the new normal"

    That said, of course white lions will do worse vs wardancers - they have the lower stats and wasted AP damage output of great weapon units.

  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    edited August 30
    eumaies said:

    Wardancers are and always have been a bit UP and saurus warriors are a little too strong or "the new normal"

    That said, of course white lions will do worse vs wardancers - they have the lower stats and wasted AP damage output of great weapon units.

    Thats the old wardancers, ppl just havent figure out how to use them properly. Since its already war 3, ppl should know to always use dance mode which has already been a toggle for quite a while.

    On release, they destroy saurus so hard I believe dancers r left with something like 30% hp, now they lose to saurus with the 5% and 10 att




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