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Adorbs

Cavalry exploit

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Comments

  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    So you enjoy playing against people who have a significant disadvantage against you? Reason why FOTS is cav capped is because of the superiority of their cav compared to S2 ones. Cav spamming is easy to counter for players who actually prepare for them and not bring X amount of spears thinking OH HEY, THIS WILL SAVE ME FROM A CAV SPAM.

    Your prolly one of those Napolean/Empire players who thinks line armies are the way to go.

    For starters, the Avatar only battles for Custom matches is broken and there really isn't much you can do to stop Shogun 2 players from joining, even you you have FoTS avatar on in the title. I give them a chance to dodge, and most of the time they don't take it, guess because there isn't no one else on. Indeed cavalry spamming can be countered by either Yari Ki, or Shogunate Guard Cavalry, or even to a lesser extent Revolver cavalry, but it is always extremely tough, especially if the Shogun 2 player is using that exploit to counter your army, and I do know that bringing x amount of spears is a stupid move, and should only bring 2 in case they break through your cavalry to attack your lines.

    As far as saying that Shogun 2 armies are at a severe disadvantage, that is complete BS. Indeed Shogun 2 armies do not have many missile units to counter Line Infantry, but that can be negated by either a well planned cavalry charge; Kisho ninja behind the enemy lines; using Warrior monks to flank and hit the enemy army in the rear while the most heavily armored units are attack from the front, and if the Shogun 2 player can get to the line infantry before they retreat, it will be game over for the FoTS player, and the Bow Warrior Monks can devastate an enemy line unit with ease, while retreating to get another volley off after spending three of four, or before the enemy line troops fill the gaps.

    Also, I never played the Empire and Napoleon Multiplayer that much as I wasn't interested in it at all, and I would of never done the Avatar conquest if my friend didn't get me into it. But, I do believe having Line infantry is a great unit to have, but not the way to go as I never spam Line Infantry as that is the worst thing a FoTS player can do, especially if they are muzzle loading rifles or muskets.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited June 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    As far as saying that Shogun 2 armies are at a severe disadvantage, that is complete BS. Indeed Shogun 2 armies do not have many missile units to counter Line Infantry, but that can be negated by either a well planned cavalry charge; Kisho ninja behind the enemy lines; using Warrior monks to flank and hit the enemy army in the rear while the most heavily armored units are attack from the front, and if the Shogun 2 player can get to the line infantry before they retreat, it will be game over for the FoTS player, and the Bow Warrior Monks can devastate an enemy line unit with ease, while retreating to get another volley off after spending three of four, or before the enemy line troops fill the gaps.

    Ya your right, a skilled FOTS player vs a skilled S2 player. Its totally even.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Ya your right, a skilled FOTS player vs a skilled S2 player. Its totally even.

    It's not a matter of it being even or not, it's a matter of you using your advantages to their fullest, and at the same time trying to deny the other opponent his advantage, which requires a lot of micromanagement, but is very possible. There are many factors that go into fighting a FoTS player which can be exploited if you know what they are, and can easily gain victory if you know what you are doing. I do agree that a noob with a Shogun 2 army will get his butt destroyed before he even reaches the enemy lines, and many experienced players also will make the same mistake that a noob would, until they learn from it that is. All it takes is skill, patience, and a little luck if the opponent makes a mistake, which is very often.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited June 2012
    You make it sound that the FOTS player cant exploit his advantages against an S2 player.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    You make it sound that the FOTS player cant exploit his advantages against an S2 player.

    With the current Line of Sight bug, you really can't exploit your advantages without being right on top of an enemy army. That is also true with FoTS vs FoTS. But, I wasn't stating that the FoTS players can't exploit their advantages against a Shogun 2 player, but that a Shogun 2 player can exploit that fact that rifles and other units need a near horizontal firing arc, except for arty, and bow units can take advantage of that by targeting Line infantry, retreating, getting another volley off, retreat, and also to use the terrain to their advantage. At the moment, there isn't many maps on the game where the FoTS players won't be at a disadvantage against bow armed units in general because of the Line infantry needing a Horizontal firing arc.

    Edit: This is particularly true with hilly regions.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited June 2012
    LoS isnt really a bug, all you have to do is zoom to where your men are positioned, and see from their perspective. And your only assuming your opponent brings a line army. Which only newbs do. were talking about bigger and more balanced ones with shogitai, cheaper guns, gun cav, melee cav, some spear levies, some meat shields. etc.
  • general_advancegeneral_advance Senior Member Posts: 111Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    are you kidding this tactic would get wrecked by fots armies, the number of kills a line would get whilst looking at a cav blob is crazy, nevermind that you can simple run your cavalry in the opposite direction to kill of their more expensive but worse cavalry.
    remember yari is the most cost effetive cav out by a mile right now and vetted beyond 6 chevrons will massacre a GG
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    LoS isnt really a bug, all you have to do is zoom to where your men are positioned, and see from their perspective. And your only assuming your opponent brings a line army. Which only newbs do. were talking about bigger and more balanced ones with shogitai, cheaper guns, gun cav, melee cav, some spear levies, some meat shields. etc.

    Actually, there is something with the line of sight as many other players have noticed this, even on flat lands, your infantry will just continue to advance while ordered to fire and get mowed down, if you are not paying attention to that unit that is.

    I am not assuming that my opponent brings a line army, even though some actually do just either spam Black/Red/White Bear infantry with highly vetted artillery. And to assume that one is bring a line army is basically loosing even before the battle begins as that takes away from your ability to counter if they have any other units other than line infantry.

    are you kidding this tactic would get wrecked by fots armies, the number of kills a line would get whilst looking at a cav blob is crazy, nevermind that you can simple run your cavalry in the opposite direction to kill of their more expensive but worse cavalry.
    remember yari is the most cost effetive cav out by a mile right now and vetted beyond 6 chevrons will massacre a GG

    I suggest you read my post a little more carefully next time. I was not giving him a tactic to use against FoTS players, but the fact that FoTS players gunpowder units are at a disadvantage over the bow units of Shogun 2 and other FoTS armies as bows can fire over a hill while rifle troops need to advance to get not only into range, but also to have a clear shot as well.

    But, even though Yari Ki is a good unit, they are still no match for the better Shogun 2 cavalry like warrior monk cavalry and the great guard, and if mixed with Yari Cavalry, can cause a series headache for a FoTS army. I have heard that Shogunate Guard cavalry can massacre a warrior monk cavalry, but am not positive about that. But, in the end, there really isn't any tactic anyone can use to beat a spammer who is abusing this glitch in the game.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • general_advancegeneral_advance Senior Member Posts: 111Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    warrior monk cav loses to a yari ki if both get the charge, i used 4 chevron monk cav when i bothered playing fots vs S2 and they would always lose to even 2 chevron yari ki
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    How many Warrior Monk cav were you using? I was fighting someone who had like around 3 WM cav and 2 Yari cav and he managed to get my cavalry bogged down in the fighting. I know that if you support the WM cav with another cav unit from Shogun 2, you can cause some severe damage against FoTS cavalry.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    At first I was surprised with the comments made by some people about qed_deq's find but remembering this is the TW community I wasn't so surprised anymore. Ducky and qed_deq pretty much laid it out what's wrong and even give evidence. It doesn't take much intelligence to understand that they are talking about.
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    First time I tried to recreate it, just micro'd a light cav whole fight in 8k battle through kat sam:

    http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595846901616562637/563053CF1E547C04B42EC110726D43C84DFF80AF/

    This needs to be fixed asap
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited June 2012
    It's a find that has been there since day 1, AMP...I'm surprised you weren't aware of it.

    Those of us who are downplaying it are doing so for the reason that it only becomes a problem if a player either isn't capable of facing a cav swarm, or doesn't react to it when it comes. I've had it attempted on me, and it didn't work, simply because cav swarming doesn't work on high morale high vet builds backed with good vet cav.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

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  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    It's a find that has been there since day 1, AMP...I'm surprised you weren't aware of it.

    Those of us who are downplaying it are doing so for the reason that it only becomes a problem if a player either isn't capable of facing a cav swarm, or doesn't react to it when it comes. I've had it attempted on me, and it didn't work, simply because cav swarming doesn't work on high morale high vet builds backed with good vet cav.

    The cav still gets free kills as it runs through invulnerable. How isn't that a problem?
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited June 2012
    Played properly, you can bog them down and wipe them out...it's the morale collapse that is the threat, so you react to avoid that, and that's where better quality units come into their own.

    I'm not saying it isn't an issue, only that there are worse ones out there...such as the reverse problem where charging cavalry stop on the first line of troops they hit, which is utterly ridiculous. Realistically, horses moving at pretty much any speed either shove people out of the way or go over the top of them, anyone who has worked with them will tell you that...so the only reason this is an issue is from a game-play perspective.

    Edit:

    Well, I've looked at the new 'closer view' video, and I see an army hit in the flank by a massive cav build which has rally and banzai active...I also see the defending morale drop like crazy as it is simply overrun...and I really think the reason the cav doesn't take many losses is simply because the defending units collapsed before they could do much damage...although the question is 'were those defending units given attack orders, or were they simply standing there or still moving?'. If they weren't given attack orders, then it is hypocritical to think that they should get kills and the cavalry shouldn't. I would really suggest that most of the kills the cavalry got was from routing units, although I have to admit that my eyesight isn't that good enough to clearly see any of the mouse-over data.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

    If you didn't, click here...
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    You don't understand, the unit is invulnerable. Second test, my 1 unit vs his entire army.


    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004699686/screenshot/595846901617552358


    (the unit only lost 15 men before he rage quit)
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited June 2012
    Good point...but I think this is caused by the correcting of an earlier problem which was identified way back when - and that was that moving cavalry would get entangled up when it collided with only a couple of men, or hit the end of a strung out unit. There was a fair bit of complaining about that soon after release, and this is more than likely the by-product of that fix.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

    If you didn't, click here...
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I can only conclude that the players in the replays I provided were incredibly bad at abusing the bug (but were clearly still trying to) because the extent of the imbalance is far beyond what I expected pre-testing
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,390Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Yeah, it really comes down to keeping the unit moving. If you keep the unit moving after the initial contact, it simply put won't take losses. And it is also near impossible to bog it down, especially if the cav is used en masse. It is extremely gamebreaking.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Hidden Gunman it doesn't matter how long it's been around it should be fixed. I never witnessed this abuse since day 1 and I never saw someone bring it up on the forums either, but in any case that doesn't matter. The exploit is there and is abusive therefore it should be fixed. Just look at the abuse in the vids and replays it can't be anymore obvious there is a serious problem.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited June 2012
    ya saw some players use that in the CWC tourney.
  • RTKMercuriusRTKMercurius Senior Member Posts: 144Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    It has always been preferable to keep your cav moving if you have numbers and morale. And the classic push-through is well known... it should be labelled a proper tactic at this point. That all makes this bug nicely camouflaged within rather normal play.

    This is an ugly bug... hope someone fixes that. I really don't know how one would adjudicate this within a tournament. I know CWC has banned the use of the bug, but the solution could be as problematic as the problem. Or, at least, it makes it harder on the admins.....

    It's been a long time since I've played NTW, but there was a similar effect with cav running up a firing line, although I believe that was just the triggering of morale effects. Might be worth a test.
  • justyhawkjustyhawk Senior Member Posts: 455Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I've been waiting after reading the op to come across an exploiter using this "tactic" (flaw in the game mechanic) against me.

    A melee gen with 5-6 katana cav come charging into my lines so I send 2 naginatta sam's to intercept and 3 monk cav this seems to work quite well and their morale is suffering and I rout 1-2 of the units as they pass through to the 3 ranks of nagi attendants as they attempt to spread into the guns and main melee infantry of my army. At this point I've routed another kat cav, but the remaining 3 are circling around within my army, I'm clicking away attck commands but the whirlpool effect continues.

    His gen got intercepted by my yari sam's and was held but he breaks away. runs off to the other side of the map.

    His kat cav are finally all routed but my matchlock sam have routed my bow monks are about half strength and I have a hand ful of monk gunners left for range, the main bulk of my army is fine. Of course at this point he reveals 3 units of bow cav and more cav, yari's. His main infantry 1 unit of sword attendant.

    I have 3 monk cav and lots of spears left but after playing alot of skirmish matches (which I dislike) I soon realise that even after taking down another couple of yari cav and a unit of hidden bow ash this battle is going nowhere and I'm going to get bowed to death eventually.

    This cav exploit is lame, perhaps CA can give us a standard battle and a skirmish battle category to choose!

    I hate cav spams and this exploit makes them a sure fire success in competant hands. Very lame if only I'd known I would have quit the battle before it began. I know his name now so that's what's going to happen if I get matched with him again.

    How cheaters love to win!
  • exorgistis77exorgistis77 Senior Member Posts: 1,309Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    well the exploit is very existent AND someone FROM ca finally should present himself and answer to our ******g QUESTIONS like all the companies in the world do to their customers in the FORUMS . WHY ON EARTH DO THEY LEAVE THE GAME BROKEN AND A PARADISE FOR CHEATER- EXPLOITERS
    thanks
    Zarganis
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    They are probably already working hard on their next title, but yeah this exploit is a bit over kill and should be addressed asap.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,596Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    CA probably already has this exploit fixed in their new title, which I think will be the last game that will be on this game engine. So, I don't expect to see this exploit in their new game, or the games after that. I do wish that CA would comment onto what they are doing about this glitch though.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    It can be fixed but them just removing 1 command from cav
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    just met a guy on the ladder using it when he's about to lose with his gen. He had 29 att kat cav on him, yet 12/20 men remaining for 5 minutes while he chases a matchlock unit
  • exorgistis77exorgistis77 Senior Member Posts: 1,309Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    we meet 2 guys with pol pot.. Needless to say pol pot is extremelly skilled and good player.. Guys had full melee exploit spam which for those who know in 2v2 is even more powerful ..well ok , but, they had 16 cav.. which they used like this.. Well when i saw this i realized it was time to test this with my 4 ki and since these guys were not fast or particularly skilled i would see how it woul dwork without a cav spam.
    Well pol was wasted bar 2-3 half units asap.. so was i after a while despite the fact i was micro-ing very fast both ponys and infantry.. when i was left with 2 half units i decided to begin the exploit with the cav units half in strength..I did ..and yes they werent dying.. then i changed and was attackin all the time not just wavering them.. result? we almost won..my ponys had some 200+ kills 3 of them.. My conclusion is that the constant attacking could be legit cause it needs intense micro and even the 4 ki wavering could be (kind of) accepted cause it would take out from the rest of the army management but.. the full melee spam with 8 cav doing it is definitely a cheat...but en mass its an exploit
    In shogun things are far worse and cav should be limited-caped immediately .. even a full spear army gets routed immediately with this expoit by a cav spam, we r talkin about seconds here.. only counter lies in doing the same with whatever ponys you have ... but eventually you will lose by attrition and ofc , this is not a game..its a f****
    Zarganis
  • justyhawkjustyhawk Senior Member Posts: 455Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Oh yeah, did I mention the player I faced was in the top ten on the leaderboard?

    No surpises there then!
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