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Bretonnia cavalry needs a massive update and power up

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  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    The whole faction identity weak archer and infantry is just pure nonsense.

    For that to happen, it would imply their cav is better than others, which is factually proven to be wrong. Thats not the worse, the bad news is their cav r subpar to others lol!

    So what u have here is a supposedly cav faction with cav weaker than basically 7/10 others in game while having almost some of the worst inf and archers in game.

    Thats not to say they r completely unusable, its just ure only down $1000-2000 compare to other factions due to overpriced units. Which is fine when say $10k vs $12 u can still win.

    Problem is when ure $10k and ure facing factions that’s heavily op with underpriced units it becomes 10 vs something like 13-14 thats when u get one sided steam roll
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  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 56
    yst said:



    For that to happen, it would imply their cav is better than others, which is factually proven to be wrong. Thats not the worse, the bad news is their cav r subpar to others lol!

    Ansolutely!

    Do you want devastating charges? Slaanesh is there for you.
    Do you want cavalry that does good damage on charges but can also stick around in melee? Khorne is here!
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,274
    Artagnan said:

    yst said:



    For that to happen, it would imply their cav is better than others, which is factually proven to be wrong. Thats not the worse, the bad news is their cav r subpar to others lol!

    Ansolutely!

    Do you want devastating charges? Slaanesh is there for you.
    Do you want cavalry that does good damage on charges but can also stick around in melee? Khorne is here!
    Meh let me introduce you to orger crushers and bear cav

    Straight up best in class



    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 56
    And empire Demigryphs, and Horned ones (with primal instincts being a straight-up buff now they are better). and stag knights
    and...
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,274
    Artagnan said:

    And empire Demigryphs, and Horned ones (with primal instincts being a straight-up buff now they are better). and stag knights
    and...

    My fav build

    Take i nero knight helberd or necro knight lance, settra on sphinkx.

    Gwt two chariots two necrotats pr one necrtat or tomb prince all of them in chariot.

    One stalker

    Three skelles bunch of skelton cav nehak cav



    Run over bretonnia.

    Pr pig tonia to punish players who think qk are good cav.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,925
    edited September 6
    Stag Knights will get destroyed by Grail Knights.

    But, the fact that Hellstriders for 600 have 15 BvL and Grail Knights for 1500 have 12 BvL... That's a joke for sure.

    It's also a problem of armour inflation. Bretonnia has few tools to deal with ever increasing armour values since game 1.
  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 56
    I think their only armour-piercing units are hyppogryph knights and questing knights, right?
  • Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117 Registered Users Posts: 237
    Their only high tier AP yes.

    And can we talk about the grail reliquary? It's too slow for knights to use, too small aoe for peasants to really benefit from, and zero combat potential. It's even large so spears will melt it.

    Surely even making the buff weaker and making it map wide would be better than what it currently is.
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  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    Trash reliq is easily just $200-300 if not less. Not r not even a quarter as good as corpse cart
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  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,068

    Their only high tier AP yes.

    And can we talk about the grail reliquary? It's too slow for knights to use, too small aoe for peasants to really benefit from, and zero combat potential. It's even large so spears will melt it.

    Surely even making the buff weaker and making it map wide would be better than what it currently is.

    A hundred percent, it should be map wide but perhaps keep its cost in that case.

    There should however be a minor morale hit to the army if the relique is destroyed, same for war shrines
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,274
    edited September 10

    Their only high tier AP yes.

    And can we talk about the grail reliquary? It's too slow for knights to use, too small aoe for peasants to really benefit from, and zero combat potential. It's even large so spears will melt it.

    Surely even making the buff weaker and making it map wide would be better than what it currently is.

    A hundred percent, it should be map wide but perhaps keep its cost in that case.

    There should however be a minor morale hit to the army if the relique is destroyed, same for war shrines
    No it shouldn't honestly that sounds actually bit busted if you really think about summon/ pick one

    And hide it in a forest and than completely remove a chunk of a weaknesses

    It just needs a cost cut realistically its just a 250 gold unit pretending to be 500.


    Thats literally it. For 250 its honestly a bargain
    For 500 over pirced.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Reym#7442Reym#7442 Registered Users Posts: 825
    Aside minor stuffs like speed being lower than the current empire knight units' speeds I would mainly like to see the elite cavalry to receive buffs.

    With all the new elite cav arounds and Blood knights receiving damage boost and hunger grail knights are just average among all thosse. I really wouldn't mind an extra 5 damages like the bloodknights received, we could argue for more but in my eyes it would be the minimum.

    Then grail guardians are even worse. They should go away from this fast tanky cav design for a more classical melee grind cav (like chaos knights with swords etc).It's even more questionnable to let them in this state since the fey's mortis aura is actually not that great compared to others so why bother with an elite cav unit who actually don't deal that much damage to protect her it was niche before now it's kinda pointless.
    Decrease the MD a bit if needed but the unit would really use some extra WS and even MA.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,274
    Reym said:

    Aside minor stuffs like speed being lower than the current empire knight units' speeds I would mainly like to see the elite cavalry to receive buffs.

    With all the new elite cav arounds and Blood knights receiving damage boost and hunger grail knights are just average among all thosse. I really wouldn't mind an extra 5 damages like the bloodknights received, we could argue for more but in my eyes it would be the minimum.

    Then grail guardians are even worse. They should go away from this fast tanky cav design for a more classical melee grind cav (like chaos knights with swords etc).It's even more questionnable to let them in this state since the fey's mortis aura is actually not that great compared to others so why bother with an elite cav unit who actually don't deal that much damage to protect her it was niche before now it's kinda pointless.
    Decrease the MD a bit if needed but the unit would really use some extra WS and even MA.

    The only reason you would ever take grail gurdians in the first place is for their high MD.
    Not for random grind


    You can literally just cycle infinitely with grail knights to grind down any infantry unit.
    So i am honestly not gonna be happy if they make the unit useless

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,068
    saweendra said:

    Their only high tier AP yes.

    And can we talk about the grail reliquary? It's too slow for knights to use, too small aoe for peasants to really benefit from, and zero combat potential. It's even large so spears will melt it.

    Surely even making the buff weaker and making it map wide would be better than what it currently is.

    A hundred percent, it should be map wide but perhaps keep its cost in that case.

    There should however be a minor morale hit to the army if the relique is destroyed, same for war shrines
    No it shouldn't honestly that sounds actually bit busted if you really think about summon/ pick one

    And hide it in a forest and than completely remove a chunk of a weaknesses

    It just needs a cost cut realistically its just a 250 gold unit pretending to be 500.


    Thats literally it. For 250 its honestly a bargain
    For 500 over pirced.
    Make them unable to hide then.... Not exactly a problem

    Unlike a 250 gold blob unit
  • Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117 Registered Users Posts: 237
    I mean, you could make the grail reliquary 200 gold or similar and call it a day, but just feels uninspired. You don't address the core weaknesses and maybe after 5 years of making it cheaper and cheaper just try something else. Map wide weaker buff, only buff peasants (expendable) ect.

    But either way, we totally agree it isn't a great way to spend 500 gold.
    Do you take me for a churl?
  • Reym#7442Reym#7442 Registered Users Posts: 825
    saweendra said:

    Reym said:

    Aside minor stuffs like speed being lower than the current empire knight units' speeds I would mainly like to see the elite cavalry to receive buffs.

    With all the new elite cav arounds and Blood knights receiving damage boost and hunger grail knights are just average among all thosse. I really wouldn't mind an extra 5 damages like the bloodknights received, we could argue for more but in my eyes it would be the minimum.

    Then grail guardians are even worse. They should go away from this fast tanky cav design for a more classical melee grind cav (like chaos knights with swords etc).It's even more questionnable to let them in this state since the fey's mortis aura is actually not that great compared to others so why bother with an elite cav unit who actually don't deal that much damage to protect her it was niche before now it's kinda pointless.
    Decrease the MD a bit if needed but the unit would really use some extra WS and even MA.

    The only reason you would ever take grail gurdians in the first place is for their high MD.
    Not for random grind


    You can literally just cycle infinitely with grail knights to grind down any infantry unit.
    So i am honestly not gonna be happy if they make the unit useless
    Your last phrase is about knights or Guardians ? Because I 'm talking about buffing knights not the opposit.

    As for guardians I just find their high MD gimmick pointless alone they quickly end facing stuff that just laugh in front of 36 WS an 36 MA. They take ages to do anything meaningful and during all this time they (potentialy) get destroyed by the usual stuff like spell etc. So much for 58 MD.
    To give a better idea -4 or 6 MD for +2/3 WS and 2/4 MA would make them a bit more impactful.

    As for knights I mean most elite cav can cycle infinitely and pretty well even if unlike grail knights they don't have the advantage of having perfect vigor.
    In WH2 grail knights were roughtly equal to blood knights now they lose living blood knights at 40% HP for the elite of "the cavalry faction" it's a bit sad even with the price difference. And after testing them a bit more they are just mid to subpar compare to other factions equivalents.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    edited September 10
    saweendra said:



    Thats literally it. For 250 its honestly a bargain
    For 500 over pirced.

    Hard to say really, something as trash as reliq $250 is like a 50/50.

    I mean its between errant + trash reliq or realm knight
    Tbh i rather go realms instead.
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  • Bastilean#7242Bastilean#7242 Registered Users Posts: 2,939
    The AOE on the reliquary is huge. Feel free to increase but don't pretend this is a small AOE. It highly suffers from not being an actual buffed up encourage. Encourage has a soft fall off around the edges.

    I think giving the reliquary better stats would be more than reasonable. It costs as much as a foot hero plus the buff. Give it foot hero stats and damage. The men carrying it are inspired by divine grace.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    edited September 10


    I dont know, their melee seems really strong, managed to kill 1 artillery crew so thats something
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  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 56
    What artillery crew was it?
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,927
    Rheingold said:

    Bretonnia suffer from being a game 1 faction with asymmetrical design ported into game 3 where the new shiny factions have everything... Thats the start and end of it.
    Easy to fix though.

    Firstly their cav should have the same speed as other cav. Thats a no brainer.
    Secondly their infantry and archers are weak, seriously weak. And while thats is part of their faction identity there is room for a buff. I'm not saying squires should take on chosen and peasant archers should be as good as waywatchers, but currently they can be buffed a bit without ruining bretonia's identity.
    Start with more accuracy and a tad more ap for archers and give squires slightly better stats. Add the movement speed to knights and its a start.
    In all likelihood it won't be enough and there will need to be more buffs but it would be a start.

    WTF hell no. The last thing this game needs is more homogenization.


    Just buff the cavalry, but their peasant units should stay garbage and expendable because this is BRETTONIA, not Dwarfs or Warriors of Chaos. You want strong infantry? Go play another faction.
  • Uagrim#4644Uagrim#4644 Registered Users Posts: 2,077
    edited September 10
    For bretonnia foot knights I would just copy the idea from coast. 60 model units on ultra that have enough stats and armour to elevate themselves away from the fodder infantry the faction fields otherwise.

    But giving the bretonnia a DLC with more cav options for more variety things that would be nice. Something more than shield + spear with stuff like aura effects or just even propper anti infantry.
  • #210289#210289 Registered Users Posts: 167
    Bretonnia needs more armor piercing. Also the cavalry update appears incomplete. Only empire and jade and cold ones got buffed. Hopefully in 2.2 we see bretonnia actually get brought up to par along with other neglected cavalry factions (read all of them except empire and cathay.)
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,997

    Bretonnia needs more armor piercing. Also the cavalry update appears incomplete. Only empire and jade and cold ones got buffed. Hopefully in 2.2 we see bretonnia actually get brought up to par along with other neglected cavalry factions (read all of them except empire and cathay.)

    The update was a health and MD buff which all cavalry received. Many received additional buffs such as a lot of light cavalry gaining some WS. I'm like 90% sure the Empire and Cathay speed changes are a bug related to the character speed change but honestly hard to tell looking at the game code.

    Though a lot of units that had unique speed values are now at 78 speed with no rhyme or reason including unicorn mounts, and vampire count characters on horses. Also chaos characters with a chaos steed mount which makes them 8 speed faster than normal chaos knights. Some changes were probably intentional while others are clear bugs (cavalry speeds "slow" and "very slow" are set to the same value of 7.8 if I recall correctly). It's a mess.

    Having said that Bret not getting any cavalry buffs feels particularly bad since that's supposed to be the core of their roster and for some time their most expensive units haven't been in the best place.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,274
    Reym said:

    saweendra said:

    Reym said:

    Aside minor stuffs like speed being lower than the current empire knight units' speeds I would mainly like to see the elite cavalry to receive buffs.

    With all the new elite cav arounds and Blood knights receiving damage boost and hunger grail knights are just average among all thosse. I really wouldn't mind an extra 5 damages like the bloodknights received, we could argue for more but in my eyes it would be the minimum.

    Then grail guardians are even worse. They should go away from this fast tanky cav design for a more classical melee grind cav (like chaos knights with swords etc).It's even more questionnable to let them in this state since the fey's mortis aura is actually not that great compared to others so why bother with an elite cav unit who actually don't deal that much damage to protect her it was niche before now it's kinda pointless.
    Decrease the MD a bit if needed but the unit would really use some extra WS and even MA.

    The only reason you would ever take grail gurdians in the first place is for their high MD.
    Not for random grind


    You can literally just cycle infinitely with grail knights to grind down any infantry unit.
    So i am honestly not gonna be happy if they make the unit useless
    Your last phrase is about knights or Guardians ? Because I 'm talking about buffing knights not the opposit.

    As for guardians I just find their high MD gimmick pointless alone they quickly end facing stuff that just laugh in front of 36 WS an 36 MA. They take ages to do anything meaningful and during all this time they (potentialy) get destroyed by the usual stuff like spell etc. So much for 58 MD.
    To give a better idea -4 or 6 MD for +2/3 WS and 2/4 MA would make them a bit more impactful.

    As for knights I mean most elite cav can cycle infinitely and pretty well even if unlike grail knights they don't have the advantage of having perfect vigor.
    In WH2 grail knights were roughtly equal to blood knights now they lose living blood knights at 40% HP for the elite of "the cavalry faction" it's a bit sad even with the price difference. And after testing them a bit more they are just mid to subpar compare to other factions equivalents.
    Thats just power creep the last part. But they always lost back than difference all is when i picked when to fight. That didn't change.


    As for grail gurdians mate i never picked them for kill stuff i need it because some times you need something to just hold.


    If you wanna kill with them perfect vigor does wonders with cycle charging.



    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    Artagnan said:

    What artillery crew was it?

    Helf.

    U can try with any crew really, reliq wep str is less than 50
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  • ThibixMagnus#8300ThibixMagnus#8300 Registered Users Posts: 849

    I mean, you could make the grail reliquary 200 gold or similar and call it a day, but just feels uninspired. You don't address the core weaknesses and maybe after 5 years of making it cheaper and cheaper just try something else. Map wide weaker buff, only buff peasants (expendable) ect.

    But either way, we totally agree it isn't a great way to spend 500 gold.

    or simply copy paste the army book so the reliquae provides the lady's blessing to any unit in the area :) however, the blessing itself needs to be more... inspired than just a weaker version of sneaky ratmen survivability.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    edited September 12
    Current bret biggest weakness is lady blessing as a faction mechanic is simply too weak

    With the abundance of magic att across ALL factions. Its now a no brainer to use them vs the knights

    Lady blessing has always been a ward and now more than ever needs to be a ward. Its stupid enough to lose the blessing after fleeing, which by lore it is so, but they r also ward saves NOT Physical
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  • ThibixMagnus#8300ThibixMagnus#8300 Registered Users Posts: 849
    yst said:

    Current bret biggest weakness is lady blessing as a faction mechanic is simply too weak

    With the abundance of magic att across ALL factions. Its now a no brainer to use them vs the knights

    Lady blessing has always been a ward and now more than ever needs to be a ward. Its stupid enough to lose the blessing after fleeing, which by lore it is so, but they r also ward saves NOT Physical

    now we have fresh new code for a barrier
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 962
    edited September 12
    I’ve mentioned I was playing chaos a bunch at end of WH2 and regularly used them to counter bretonnia as hell cannon was really good vs bret infantry and dragon ogres could reliably win cavalry engagements with hound skirmish support.

    That’s how bad bretonnia cavalry is aside from one Ror none of their cavalry is the best at anything. Yes they’re cost effective but so are best in class cavalry options for other factions so it clearly isn’t enough.

    Also we all know Fay carried off mortis in most competitive formats of in game 2. She can’t do that anymore least not vs every faction.
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