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I like the new, weaker garrisons

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  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,576
    edited September 21


    Or maybe, even better: you get a fixed number of points (or budget) for the garrison that increases with the main chain and with the defense building. Each unit costs a set number of points (or just use the MP cost). Then, you get to recruit whatever is available in the city.

    Having to manually build or select garrisons would be very tedious.

    Up to 1.3 Warhammer 3 had the garrison budgets right, they just concentrated too much of it in high value units.

    Garrison budgets should go back up, they should always have either a caster or support hero in (melee heroes are way less useful as garrison) whose abilities are improved by the garrison building (more spells, more powers), and they should be primarily built out of low and mid tier units except in major settlements with the defensive building which should access a number of higher tier units.

    Minor settlement garrisons should end up at about 9-10 units without the defensive building, 14-15 with it, but should never get walls.

    Major settlement garrisons should end up at 14-15 without the defensive building, 20 with it. The map sizes demand nothing less.

    Major settlements should not have victory tickets, but the two special capture points should have a major buff attached for the controlling player. (Count more towards the momentum buff for the attacker)
  • MatST#9114MatST#9114 Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited September 21
    Yeah, that's another take.

    Another idea would be to have the garrison composition only tied to the main chain (or maybe other buildings just for heroes), but minor settlements would always be land battles. Then, if you build the defense building, you'd have minor settlement battles, gaining tower improvements (or more initial supplies) as you upgrade the building. You'd never have sieges for minor settlements, but only for major ones.

    That would both make minor settlement battles less prevalent and avoid the defense building rush in every province, making it an actual strategic choice.
  • kyle_usmckyle_usmc Registered Users Posts: 195
    I don't like it, the current system is wildly in favor of the attacker. Defense Is straight rash now and for most factions the towers can't make up the difference
  • Ravenclaw271#4724Ravenclaw271#4724 Registered Users Posts: 34


    Seriously, against which army should this garrison hold? Nurgle already had the worst garrison before 2.0 but the number of trash units have more than doubled now. RIP Exalted Plaguebearers, you were the MVPs in my desperate defense battles...

    At this point, deleting the whole garrison wouldnt make a difference after all; nearly every generic General with a bunch of T0 units can easily take such settlements.
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 15,858



    Seriously, against which army should this garrison hold? Nurgle already had the worst garrison before 2.0 but the number of trash units have more than doubled now. RIP Exalted Plaguebearers, you were the MVPs in my desperate defense battles...

    At this point, deleting the whole garrison wouldnt make a difference after all; nearly every generic General with a bunch of T0 units can easily take such settlements.

    Nurgle garrisons weren't bad before IE though, the units were super tanky and you had the towers to deal damage. Nurgle's towers are one of the best in the game.
  • Ravenclaw271#4724Ravenclaw271#4724 Registered Users Posts: 34
    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.
  • saj1987#4378saj1987#4378 Registered Users Posts: 377
    Djau#5149 said:

    What's the point of garrisons now if they can't defend against at least a half stack?

    This.
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 15,858

    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.

    You're doing something wrong if you think that Rot Flies are useless.
  • Ravenclaw271#4724Ravenclaw271#4724 Registered Users Posts: 34
    edited September 25
    Neodeinos said:

    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.

    You're doing something wrong if you think that Rot Flies are useless.
    6k health, 31 MA, 24 MD, 16 Charge Bonus, 80 WS, 10 modells, bad animations, not enough mass to escape a fight,...

    Horrible is a nice word for that, though i have to admit, against a distracted Skaven Slave unit they could win if Ranald/Nurgle is merciful.
  • capybarasiesta89#4722capybarasiesta89#4722 Senior Member Edinburgh, ScotlandRegistered Users Posts: 5,457
    edited September 25
    I don't like it at all, removing heroes from Garrison was a mistake, they need to bring them back and add more units.
    h1feizw8yzk6.jpg
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 15,858

    Neodeinos said:

    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.

    You're doing something wrong if you think that Rot Flies are useless.
    6k health, 31 MA, 24 MD, 16 Charge Bonus, 80 WS, 10 modells, bad animations, not enough mass to escape a fight,...

    Horrible is a nice word for that, though i have to admit, against a distracted Skaven Slave unit they could win if Ranald/Nurgle is merciful.
    Rot Flies are a very good unit to keep the ranged units busy so they don't murder your front line. Nurgle doesn't have a single useless unit in the roster, they all have a good use.
  • epic_159738197249IkuBCzYepic_159738197249IkuBCzY Registered Users Posts: 144

    Neodeinos said:

    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.

    You're doing something wrong if you think that Rot Flies are useless.
    6k health, 31 MA, 24 MD, 16 Charge Bonus, 80 WS, 10 modells, bad animations, not enough mass to escape a fight,...

    Horrible is a nice word for that, though i have to admit, against a distracted Skaven Slave unit they could win if Ranald/Nurgle is merciful.
    I liked rot flies...but recently I had a unit of them get stuck on zombies and were slowly killed. I really wasn't happy with that...
  • Jo_Proulx#5293Jo_Proulx#5293 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,760
    1v0#3562 said:

    I don't like it at all - races/factions with weaker economys have no gold to support more than 1 full stack even after getting 8-10 settlemetns...

    So you end up having the AI just running around sacking all your undefended citys while your main army is trying to expand your territory so you can have more armys.
    OR you just go back and get stuck defending - because when you defend one side the other side will be attacked.
    Just try it on very hard and you will see what i mean.

    I really don't like it and already use a mod to fix this... With an smarter AI + better garrison + better autoresolve mods the glory of WH2 is back for me - but its better ! because of the bigger map and more races (thou fixes are still needed).

    I agree, although, I would prefer to be able to afford more armies over boosting garrison back, playing with garrison isnt dynamic and is ratter boring IMO, but being starved economically isnt fun.

    I'm trying RoC VH/VH as Tzeentch/Kairos again in vanilla, and its painful, cant really afford a second army and I'm being attack on all sides on top of needing to send my only army for many turns in chaos realms. Garrison are too weak to defend settlements. Also replenishment is abysmal but thats another problem...

    But, I think it should be ok in normal difficulty, while still challenging I guess? probably still boring to defend with garrison though.

    I think we should be able to afford more armies so we can cover more lands and the AI should be adjusted to be challenging on all difficulties despite us having more armies, because right now we are playing wack-a-mole and it suck. I would prefer to have more armies and be under pressure by enough AI armies ratter then playing with empty lands.

    Its more challenging but its not really fun. It should be fun though, kind of important.

    The game is about making fun armies and playing battles with them, starving the players is counter productive to the core of the game, harder difficulties should give more battles to play ratter then less. Defending settlements with **** garrison vs full stacks might be "challenging" but it suck and isnt effective or fun.
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • #153592#153592 Registered Users Posts: 264

    What I would like to see in the future is your military building add's unit into your garrison !

    So for example, if you have a stable, you can recrute knight and, you have a unit of knight into your garrison at tier1, 2 at tier2 etc

    1st, because it's logic, if you can recrute unit here, it's because there are some available in this settlement.

    2nd, it will add a lot of garrison variety, because you don't necessary build all the time the same building in all your settlement, so the battle will be different for the attacker AND for the defenser. Not all the time the same like now...

    3th, If you focus on economic building, you take a risk but you win a lot of money, if you focus on military, it's safer but you don't earn much money, it's a interesting choice in my opinion, and, you don't have to built necessary the garrison building to protect your settlement, you have different option with this, it's not a compeled pick up like before.
  • saj1987#4378saj1987#4378 Registered Users Posts: 377
    saphirre said:


    What I would like to see in the future is your military building add's unit into your garrison !

    So for example, if you have a stable, you can recrute knight and, you have a unit of knight into your garrison at tier1, 2 at tier2 etc

    1st, because it's logic, if you can recrute unit here, it's because there are some available in this settlement.

    2nd, it will add a lot of garrison variety, because you don't necessary build all the time the same building in all your settlement, so the battle will be different for the attacker AND for the defenser. Not all the time the same like now...

    3th, If you focus on economic building, you take a risk but you win a lot of money, if you focus on military, it's safer but you don't earn much money, it's a interesting choice in my opinion, and, you don't have to built necessary the garrison building to protect your settlement, you have different option with this, it's not a compeled pick up like before.

    Using a mod like that and it's great so I support the idea.
  • Ravenclaw271#4724Ravenclaw271#4724 Registered Users Posts: 34
    edited September 26
    Neodeinos said:

    Neodeinos said:

    Yeah, 50% of your army being trashtier Nurglings, the other other half useless Rot Flies, Chaos Spawn (the worst of all Spawns before 2.0), Plague Toads with dumb animation and ranged weak Plaguebearers (was really fun to fighting every battle manuelly against Kislev with their full ranged Roster). Not to mention that Nurgle has no garrison building (including now), thus no walls. Please tell me a single playable faction whose garrison had worse units.

    Towers are strong indeed, but doesnt matter that much if your frontline gets melted by ranged units.

    You're doing something wrong if you think that Rot Flies are useless.
    6k health, 31 MA, 24 MD, 16 Charge Bonus, 80 WS, 10 modells, bad animations, not enough mass to escape a fight,...

    Horrible is a nice word for that, though i have to admit, against a distracted Skaven Slave unit they could win if Ranald/Nurgle is merciful.
    Rot Flies are a very good unit to keep the ranged units busy so they don't murder your front line. Nurgle doesn't have a single useless unit in the roster, they all have a good use.
    Keeping units busy is all what they can and even in that they are ineffective. Just start a DoC RoC-campaign and look how your starting Plague Drones (the far better Rot Flies) work against T1 empire units. They barely win a 1v1 against Swordsman with heavy casualties and lose decisively against Spearman. Kislev is far worse to fight with their full hybrid armies. They can distract, but are surely gone after some time (seconds if they get also shot). And wasting them to buy time is counterproductive since they provide too much balance of power to use them as fleshshields. If you need distraction with Nurgle, just recruit Chaos Furies: fast, cheap, small hitboxes, similar melee stats.

    Before 2.0, Nurgle had exactly 3 good units: Exalted Plaguebearers, Soulgrinders and Great Unclean Ones. Getting out of the early game with Nurglings, regular Plaguebearers, Toads and Flies was pain, if your main threats were Kislev, Dwarfs and Tzeentch. After 2.0 he got some mobility and shields with CWs and Horseman/CKs atleast, so he can now deal with ranged units without sacrificing his own units.
  • LukeSept#6086LukeSept#6086 Registered Users Posts: 6
    Did anyone also noticed that although garrisons got smaller they also are rated much higher in auto resolve. I'm noticing that it is rating close victories in situations where in WH2 would could an crashing defeat.

    But I do whatsoever agree I liked WH2 garrisons more ... but they should just go the same rout that SFO: Grimhammer did and just copy paste their solution.
  • saj1987#4378saj1987#4378 Registered Users Posts: 377

    Did anyone also noticed that although garrisons got smaller they also are rated much higher in auto resolve. I'm noticing that it is rating close victories in situations where in WH2 would could an crashing defeat.

    But I do whatsoever agree I liked WH2 garrisons more ... but they should just go the same rout that SFO: Grimhammer did and just copy paste their solution.

    They are rated high because (this is my assumption) the autoresolve takes the buildable towers into account as a force multiplier.
  • MODIDDLY1#9212MODIDDLY1#9212 Registered Users Posts: 1,269
    saj1987 said:

    Did anyone also noticed that although garrisons got smaller they also are rated much higher in auto resolve. I'm noticing that it is rating close victories in situations where in WH2 would could an crashing defeat.

    But I do whatsoever agree I liked WH2 garrisons more ... but they should just go the same rout that SFO: Grimhammer did and just copy paste their solution.

    They are rated high because (this is my assumption) the autoresolve takes the buildable towers into account as a force multiplier.
    which doesn't really work for the AI, because I don't think they will ever build non-tier 1 towers
  • overtaker40#8926overtaker40#8926 Registered Users Posts: 1,144
    Agree for the most part. There are just a few places I think should have extra strong garrisons though.
    I like all the races. Equally. Wood elves are just the first among equals.
  • DoronHarry#3715DoronHarry#3715 Registered Users Posts: 5
    I think its boring. They should spice it up a bit.
    Add more variety to the units, have some towers already built or more resources to build towers when u build tier 3 garrison from the start of the battle, cool army abilities and different garrison buildings that give different units to give the player a choice when building garrison.

    On the other hand the garrison from the allied outposts are cool maybe more in to that also
  • overtaker40#8926overtaker40#8926 Registered Users Posts: 1,144

    I think its boring. They should spice it up a bit.
    Add more variety to the units, have some towers already built or more resources to build towers when u build tier 3 garrison from the start of the battle, cool army abilities and different garrison buildings that give different units to give the player a choice when building garrison.

    On the other hand the garrison from the allied outposts are cool maybe more in to that also

    I think some garrisons with unique building should get the odd dlc unit. Make it a tease for the people that don't have the dlc.
    I like all the races. Equally. Wood elves are just the first among equals.
  • Riba#6818Riba#6818 Registered Users Posts: 12
    edited October 2
    I would like option to add units to garrisons for recruit + upkeep cost without increasing amount of armies I have. Just 1 slot would be nice and training it should require military building in the province. This way you also increase building variety rather than it just being growth + income at minor provinces.

    Maybe a hero also.
  • Schussel#7671Schussel#7671 Registered Users Posts: 1,039

    Garrison balancing between factions from best to worst aside. Do keep in mind, that the AI at the moment fields fewer/worse armies than it normally would.
    Even if we say garrisons are adequate now (I do think they´re a bit underwhelming in many cases), what about after AI economy is fixed?


    What?
    Sorry but if you get raped by Nkara and his doom stacks in round 20
    Or lmidgame 2 Stacks of High Elves full of dragons, nights, Shadow Bowguys, Guards and Swordmasters

    can't say that the AI is fields worse or fewer armies.
  • Victor300SpartaVictor300Sparta Registered Users Posts: 33
    edited October 2
    I'm playing with Settra right now. Defending Khemri is TERRIBLE. Even with everything there at max level. I can't have multiple armies quickly with the tomb kings mechanic.

    And I can't focus my attention there while I fighting half of the southland races that keep trying to find a weak spot in my empire to invade. I could manage If the garrinson wasn't **** and Skarbrand continuing attacking even ignoring other tomb king factions just to BEAT me up. Anyway If people like the weaker garrisons good for them. But I **** hate it and I will use a mod to fix up.

    I can only hope CA makes the capital of every race worth to build defenses again.
  • Maximum997#5036Maximum997#5036 Registered Users Posts: 30
    With small garrisons town battles become even more just a waste of time.
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