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Kroq Gar feeling very weak atm.

#21546#21546 Registered Users Posts: 4,761
edited September 29 in General Discussion
Hello everyone

Multiplayer mainly, but campaign also.

wanted to share my thoughts on Kroq Gar. Imo he feels very weak atm...

First he is a monster hunter. Which is kinda cool, exept from the fact that he really struggles against monsters. Mainly due to his janky animations, low melee defence, low HP and 0 combat abilities. Which means that when he does get on the perfect target he often still takes a huge beating and is thus rendered useless for the rest of the fight. Compared to other melee only LL in the game is is lacking. Kholek is better than him in every departement and utterly demolish him in combat. Kholek is also tankier and more effective vs infantry.

Even WITH frenzy active, Kholek has basically better stats everywhere. Imo it should be that with frenzy active, Kroq gar has better stats and with frenzy off he has worst stats. Atm its just bad both ways. Since he always takes huge damage and has not very high leadership, his frenzy goes away quickly. at 80 Leadership is quite low for the greatest warrior in the Lizardmen Empire that is known to face hordes of daemons alone and not taking a step back.

Skabrand is just better at everything, better at dueling monsters and lords, better at debuffing the enemy, better at crowd clearing. When it comes to big powerfull monster lords, Kroq is lacking severely. He is the most anti-monster specialised of all the LL, but he does not really perform much better.

you often need him in big alpha strike on your opponent, but in these moments, the enemy pops all their combat buffs, while you are sitting there with you basics stats, plus they most of the time uses debuffs on you too. Only way to help him a bit is with harmonic convergence on the skink.

He really needs more MD and more HP. Simply to makes it so that when he does finish off his prefered targets he is able to still fight on the battlefield. He also needs a special item that boost his combat stats, he needs his spear as an item.


Comments

  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    meh kroq gar i think is pretty good in Lbs he is cheap , can use hand of delete , has good mounts can get away from the opponent and kite .


    just he's more of lzm kite lord and depending on MU is better than oxy for the job since he ca n cause terror and get the **** off

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • damon40000#7640damon40000#7640 Registered Users Posts: 1,866
    no ****, Kholek is better than most melee lords, in fact kroq gar too, but not that drastically
    BsFG dwarf
  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,204
    He definitely does not live up to his history in the setting. Carnosaurs as well went from being overtuned world beaters on WH2 release to being hit with the nerf-bat overr and over and over again until where they are right now.

    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???
  • Pede#6322Pede#6322 Registered Users Posts: 1,934
    Wyvax said:

    He definitely does not live up to his history in the setting. Carnosaurs as well went from being overtuned world beaters on WH2 release to being hit with the nerf-bat overr and over and over again until where they are right now.

    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    In the setting, every LL is a world beating super god. If CA balanced the game arround the setting, it would become a total mess..

  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,204
    Pede said:

    Wyvax said:

    He definitely does not live up to his history in the setting. Carnosaurs as well went from being overtuned world beaters on WH2 release to being hit with the nerf-bat overr and over and over again until where they are right now.

    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    In the setting, every LL is a world beating super god. If CA balanced the game arround the setting, it would become a total mess..
    No, in the army books, evey LL is portrayed as a world beating super god, because they are written as propaganda pieces. Take that tale spinning away and it's far more moderate as per the TT. I actually wish CA would base the balance off of the TT game, where a single lucky cannonball could oneshot Tyrion just like what could happen in the older historical TWs. The older simulation style of gameplay was a lot more accurate to the TT wheareas the TW we have today has far more in common with the 'Herohammer' edition (which was 4th or 5th IIRC), borderlining on the RPG genera of games. Except of course characters like Kroq-Gar and a few unlucky others.
  • Pede#6322Pede#6322 Registered Users Posts: 1,934
    Wyvax said:

    Pede said:

    Wyvax said:

    He definitely does not live up to his history in the setting. Carnosaurs as well went from being overtuned world beaters on WH2 release to being hit with the nerf-bat overr and over and over again until where they are right now.

    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    In the setting, every LL is a world beating super god. If CA balanced the game arround the setting, it would become a total mess..
    No, in the army books, evey LL is portrayed as a world beating super god, because they are written as propaganda pieces. Take that tale spinning away and it's far more moderate as per the TT. I actually wish CA would base the balance off of the TT game, where a single lucky cannonball could oneshot Tyrion just like what could happen in the older historical TWs. The older simulation style of gameplay was a lot more accurate to the TT wheareas the TW we have today has far more in common with the 'Herohammer' edition (which was 4th or 5th IIRC), borderlining on the RPG genera of games. Except of course characters like Kroq-Gar and a few unlucky others.
    I don't think most people would appriciate a single random stray canonball killing off your 3000 gold or more expensive LL.

    So you want stronger Kroq-gar but even more RNG so he can die to a single Lucky shot.

    Sounds like a mess to me.

  • BUgmansxxx#6916BUgmansxxx#6916 Registered Users Posts: 9
    Kroq Gar is definitely not weak. I mean losing to Kholek and Scarbrand does not make LL weak. Those are supposed to be the scariest fighters around.

    Kroq Gar also has fear, terror and discouraged effect on his spear making him great at routing enemies and he gets some interesting buffs from his unique skills like devastating flanker and immunity to contact effects so he can not be poisoned.

    What bothers me is that he does not get his own old blood WS buff so his generic lords will out damage him after leveling up. It feels kind of weird.
    Imo. they should have leaned a bit more on him being a cavalry leader and given him a skill/effect to buff cold one units a bit.


  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,204
    Pede said:

    Wyvax said:

    Pede said:

    Wyvax said:

    He definitely does not live up to his history in the setting. Carnosaurs as well went from being overtuned world beaters on WH2 release to being hit with the nerf-bat overr and over and over again until where they are right now.

    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    In the setting, every LL is a world beating super god. If CA balanced the game arround the setting, it would become a total mess..
    No, in the army books, evey LL is portrayed as a world beating super god, because they are written as propaganda pieces. Take that tale spinning away and it's far more moderate as per the TT. I actually wish CA would base the balance off of the TT game, where a single lucky cannonball could oneshot Tyrion just like what could happen in the older historical TWs. The older simulation style of gameplay was a lot more accurate to the TT wheareas the TW we have today has far more in common with the 'Herohammer' edition (which was 4th or 5th IIRC), borderlining on the RPG genera of games. Except of course characters like Kroq-Gar and a few unlucky others.
    I don't think most people would appriciate a single random stray canonball killing off your 3000 gold or more expensive LL.

    So you want stronger Kroq-gar but even more RNG so he can die to a single Lucky shot.

    Sounds like a mess to me.
    No the point was that they went away from that game design to a more arcadey, RPG style in general, and Kroq-Gar has been one of those unfortunate LLs to be left behind. My preference is just consistency across the board.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,640
    Yeah poor Kroqs is just a generic Saurus Lord basically. I hope CA will revisit him once LM get their rework.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Theo91#7431Theo91#7431 Registered Users Posts: 2,954
    I dont think he needs to be better than Kholek as Kholek is a beast.

    Kroq Gar is super fast and has a niche but he does feel a tad underwhelming atm. i would give him an extra 5 BvL and see how that lands
  • #21546#21546 Registered Users Posts: 4,761
    saweendra said:

    meh kroq gar i think is pretty good in Lbs he is cheap , can use hand of delete , has good mounts can get away from the opponent and kite .


    just he's more of lzm kite lord and depending on MU is better than oxy for the job since he ca n cause terror and get the **** off

    cheap ? lol Dude is like 2700 gold.


  • #21546#21546 Registered Users Posts: 4,761

    I dont think he needs to be better than Kholek as Kholek is a beast.

    Kroq Gar is super fast and has a niche but he does feel a tad underwhelming atm. i would give him an extra 5 BvL and see how that lands

    Well there is no reasons for Kholek to be this much stronger than Kroq, we just accepted this because thats how things have been.

    They are both monster hunters, yet Kholek is better vs monsters, but also much better vs everything else.


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327

    saweendra said:

    meh kroq gar i think is pretty good in Lbs he is cheap , can use hand of delete , has good mounts can get away from the opponent and kite .


    just he's more of lzm kite lord and depending on MU is better than oxy for the job since he ca n cause terror and get the **** off

    cheap ? lol Dude is like 2700 gold.
    he is cheap enough mate for a very mobile lord terror bomb aka kite lord . get him a skink orcle some salamanders or razor don , chemelion skinks or skink skirmishers and just kite around

    and secondly him on a horned one is valid mount option

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,932
    ITT people who don't understand that the source material talks up all characters like they're fantasy Chuck Norris. Everything is exaggerated to ridiculous degree and it's hilarious none of you can even grasp that.

    KG is a very old and experienced Saurus, nothing more. He's not even white or extra big like Gor.
    Wyvax said:



    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    Are you having difficulty seeing why an anti-large specialist on foot is losing against a footlord that happens to be a dedicated anti-infantry specialist?

  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,204

    ITT people who don't understand that the source material talks up all characters like they're fantasy Chuck Norris. Everything is exaggerated to ridiculous degree and it's hilarious none of you can even grasp that.

    KG is a very old and experienced Saurus, nothing more. He's not even white or extra big like Gor.

    Wyvax said:



    I also distinctly remember thinking on release while checking out the matched animations between Kroq-Gar and Queek on foot: that I get their roles are different, he's a monster hunter and Queek a duelist, but why is an 8,000 year old genetically engineered perfect warrior that's solo'd hordes of greater daemons losing to a 4 year old PCP rat that runs away from 1 of said greater daemons???

    Are you having difficulty seeing why an anti-large specialist on foot is losing against a footlord that happens to be a dedicated anti-infantry specialist?

    Mostly because anti-large and anti-infantry as they currently exist is an arbitrary abstraction created by inflating or deflating numbers of a units combat and weapon effectiveness in a given match up rather than balancing them properly. A spear wall or a phalanx of halberds is no less effective against a block of infantry than it is against a unit of cavalry, as was true in history, past total wars and the table-top for Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Prior to the introduction of the Warscape engine, different weapons utilized by soldiers actually had physics in place, so a bunch of swordsmen couldn't make it very easily into a block of spearmen as they were constantly being stabbed at by the enemies weapons, whish allowed them to take on cavalry so well in game. Currently the weapons are all the same in the code, just with visual changes, but have no actual collision, just the same generic hitbox of the wielders fist, this is why spearmen occasionally utilize sword animations in battle, as they're all the same in the code. To imitate the distinction, the base stats have to be nerfed and then an arbitrary bonus applied after the fact, which results in the genius game design of Temple Guard or Halberd Chaos Warriors hitting for more damage on cavalry or monsters then standard Saurus or Chaos Warriors, yet somehow inflicting less damage on infantry than the latter do, (ignoring the topic of AP distribution for now as that is a whole other can of worms I have issues with). If weapon and unit types where standardized across the board, allowing varience for racial differences, then bonuses to infantry or cavalry would not need to exist in the first place, as they'd naturally occur as a result. Take the feral Stegadon for an example, it's a roided up fantasy Triceratops with stupid high weapon strength and the tendency to trample and bulldoze multiple units on it's massive charge, what exactly is the anti-infantry bonus adding to it that it doesn't already have? A moderately higher hit chance and overkill on damage? It's meaningless when fighting infantry and quite honestly doesn't impede it's ability to fight large targets either. But the aforementioned halberd infantry though, they do suffer from it. As for the case of Kroq-Gar and Queek specifically, from what I can gather from eyeing up the stats and comparing them to one another and others, KG just doesn't live up to his lore at all, while Queek simply does, so that's not on CA, just GW.
  • Valkaar#2507Valkaar#2507 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,766
    Carnosaurs overall slightly underperform from where they should imo. It's kind of strange having Bastilidons with Solar Engines be some of the "best" monsters in the Lizardmen roster, while Carnosaurs have been almost entirely usurped and overshadowed by Troglodons and Oracles, as you get FAR more utility out of them for less than 10% more gold.

    So Carnosaurs in general could use a buff imo. As Wyvax stated, when Game 2 LAUNCHED, they were THE most powerful 1 vs 1 monster in Game 2. But nerf, after DLC after ME, after nerf, after DLC, has left the Carnosaur barely in the top 1/2 of the 1 vs 1 monsters. It feels rough.

    That being said, Kroq-Gar specifically is a very cost effective choice. Yes, I feel Carnosaurs aren't balanced correctly. But adding Kroq-Gar to a Carnosaur is a very small gold bump for a pretty impressive utility kit for the price.

    Kroq-Gar actually is a pretty decent 'budget' Lord, assuming you're still looking for a monstrous LL and don't have the coin to shell out for Mazdamundi.

    *^Skarbrand and Kholek do cost more with their kits, which is important to consider.

    And yes, I sympathize with it feeling strange that Kroq-Gar is a 'budget' LL. Like it feels out of place.

    But for a budget LL, Kroq-Gar isn't too shabby for his price point.
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,887
    In MP Kroq is not bad. He's the best duelist among the LM LLs. Granted LM don't often take duelist LLs in the first place, not when Life Slann/Mazda are so strong, but that's due to his competition being some of the best LLs around rather than him being bad.

    As for blandness on the campaign map... yeah, that's an issue, but more with the Lizardmen faction writ large rather than just him.
  • #21546#21546 Registered Users Posts: 4,761
    saweendra said:




    saweendra said:

    meh kroq gar i think is pretty good in Lbs he is cheap , can use hand of delete , has good mounts can get away from the opponent and kite .


    just he's more of lzm kite lord and depending on MU is better than oxy for the job since he ca n cause terror and get the **** off

    cheap ? lol Dude is like 2700 gold.
    he is cheap enough mate for a very mobile lord terror bomb aka kite lord . get him a skink orcle some salamanders or razor don , chemelion skinks or skink skirmishers and just kite around

    and secondly him on a horned one is valid mount option
    then his janky animation must be dealt with. he gets stuck un animations for too long, meaning you can't really kite. There is also the fact that he has 75 speed which is not that fast. He cannot espace from other monsters and heavy cavalry due to charge speed.


  • #21546#21546 Registered Users Posts: 4,761

    Carnosaurs overall slightly underperform from where they should imo. It's kind of strange having Bastilidons with Solar Engines be some of the "best" monsters in the Lizardmen roster, while Carnosaurs have been almost entirely usurped and overshadowed by Troglodons and Oracles, as you get FAR more utility out of them for less than 10% more gold.

    So Carnosaurs in general could use a buff imo. As Wyvax stated, when Game 2 LAUNCHED, they were THE most powerful 1 vs 1 monster in Game 2. But nerf, after DLC after ME, after nerf, after DLC, has left the Carnosaur barely in the top 1/2 of the 1 vs 1 monsters. It feels rough.

    That being said, Kroq-Gar specifically is a very cost effective choice. Yes, I feel Carnosaurs aren't balanced correctly. But adding Kroq-Gar to a Carnosaur is a very small gold bump for a pretty impressive utility kit for the price.

    Kroq-Gar actually is a pretty decent 'budget' Lord, assuming you're still looking for a monstrous LL and don't have the coin to shell out for Mazdamundi.

    *^Skarbrand and Kholek do cost more with their kits, which is important to consider.

    And yes, I sympathize with it feeling strange that Kroq-Gar is a 'budget' LL. Like it feels out of place.

    But for a budget LL, Kroq-Gar isn't too shabby for his price point.

    there is like a 50gold difference between Kholek and Kroq gar. My main problem is that Kholek and Kroq gar were on similar levels, but now Kholek is much better than kroq.


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    #21546 said:

    saweendra said:




    saweendra said:

    meh kroq gar i think is pretty good in Lbs he is cheap , can use hand of delete , has good mounts can get away from the opponent and kite .


    just he's more of lzm kite lord and depending on MU is better than oxy for the job since he ca n cause terror and get the **** off

    cheap ? lol Dude is like 2700 gold.
    he is cheap enough mate for a very mobile lord terror bomb aka kite lord . get him a skink orcle some salamanders or razor don , chemelion skinks or skink skirmishers and just kite around

    and secondly him on a horned one is valid mount option
    then his janky animation must be dealt with. he gets stuck un animations for too long, meaning you can't really kite. There is also the fact that he has 75 speed which is not that fast. He cannot espace from other monsters and heavy cavalry due to charge speed.
    Lol my dude lzm have poison on literally every unit and he has speed boost abilities its all about hitting couple of times and peace out.

    Not stay in prolonged melee

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


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