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Why is Shogun 2 considered better than Rome 2?

MrJadeMrJade Senior MemberLansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
edited February 2015 in Total War: SHOGUN 2
Just curious as to everyone's opinion. I happen to agree.
Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
Warhammer II: 73/100
Warhammer: 79/100
Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
Rome II: 49/100
Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
Napoleon: 58/100
Empire: 53/100
Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
Rome I: 88/100
Medieval I: 92/100
Shogun I: 84/100
Post edited by MrJade on
«1345

Comments

  • HildorHildor Senior Member The MidlandsRegistered Users Posts: 3,283
    edited October 2013
    Polish
    There'd be something witty here if I could think of it
  • torak8988torak8988 Member Registered Users Posts: 55
    edited October 2013
    i agree truely i'm playing shogun 2 not rome 2
    was doeing a rome 2 carthaginian campaign 15 turns and i said **** rome 2 i'm doeing shogun 2!
    They better not mess medieval 3 up i love the medieval time period! :D
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    edited October 2013
    Torak8988 wrote: »
    They better not mess medieval 2 up i love the medieval time period! :D

    I don't think CA is patching MTW2 anymore, so depends on how you feel about the game, I suppose.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • torak8988torak8988 Member Registered Users Posts: 55
    edited October 2013
    sorry i meant medieval 3 (comming hopefully)(i love playing as the byzantines :D)
  • MayorHaggarMayorHaggar Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited October 2013
    Rome 2 just doesn't feel like a Total War game, it has huge problems that are going to take a long time for CA to fix because they basically set out to make a Facebook game that reviewers could play for 5 hours and give it a high Metacritic rating. My guess is they throw up their hands and give up on it like they did with Empire, and make a smaller but more polished game like they did with Napoleon--probably Caesar's Wars or the Punic Wars or something like that.

    Shogun 2 at launch was playable and fun, but they've definitely fixed it a lot since launch--but those fixes were mainly to make an already enjoyable game even more perfect.

    Why is it a great game? It just does everything right...great battles, great campaign map, great diplomacy, great economy, great UI, great (if sometimes questionable) AI, great visual design, great music, etc etc. Other TW games tended to skimp on these things more...Napoleon is my 2nd favorite TW game but its economy is not that interesting. Diplomacy and economy were broken or unchallenging in Rome and Medieval 2.

    Also every campaign is different, it's not like Napoleon where everything feels scripted and campaigns turn out the same most of the time. Even though S2's clans look similar they all require different approaches, and while they mostly share the same units, these units have a lot of character and usefulness.
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    AI that works.

    Graphics that work.

    Polish.

    Family tree.

    Turns/Year (My agents and generals last most of the campaign in Shogun 2)

    Unit cards (I prefer the art style and coloring of Shogun 2 over the two-tone caveman drawings of Rome 2)

    Art style in general. (The buildings are symbolic pictographs instead of drawings of the structure. I prefer the latter)

    Campaign camera scope. (Rome 2's map is so bloated that you can only see a couple settlements at a time without panning)

    Ultimately, Rome 2 just doesn't feel right. I play it for a few minutes and get bored. Shogun 2 had the ability to suck me in and keep me entranced for hours on end. Shogun 2 had the "it" factor. Rome 2 doesn't.
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited October 2013
    It's like comparing a cheap chocolate bar to a ****. It might not be a nice chocolate bar, but the alternative is a ****.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    LSD wrote: »
    It's like comparing a cheap chocolate bar to a ****. It might not be a nice chocolate bar, but the alternative is a ****.

    Brilliant.
  • AchilleslastandAchilleslastand Member Registered Users Posts: 96
    edited October 2013
    O jeesh spare me......
    Shogun had basically 1 faction/set of units only with different colors with a much smaller campaign map so CA chances of mucking it up were far less. Im not say R2 is better by a longshot but one game is much much larger in scope and needed 6 more months of development.
  • easytargeteasytarget Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,432
    edited October 2013
    That small paragraph is bound to convince everyone Achille.

    Consider your job here done.
    This space intentionally left blank.
  • MayorHaggarMayorHaggar Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited October 2013
    There's something wrong with people who just refuse to like Shogun 2. I've put like 600 hours into it and still enjoy the hell out of it. It's just such a great game.
  • NisemonoNisemono Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 928
    edited October 2013
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited October 2013
    There's something wrong with people who just refuse to like Shogun 2. I've put like 600 hours into it and still enjoy the hell out of it. It's just such a great game.

    Generally the people who loved Shogun 2 didn't spend enough time on previous games.
    Kind of like how the people who bum Skyrim didn't play Oblivion/Fallout. Rehashed games are tougher to enjoy when they're, you know, rehashes.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    LSD wrote: »
    Generally the people who loved Shogun 2 didn't spend enough time on previous games.
    Kind of like how the people who bum Skyrim didn't play Oblivion/Fallout. Rehashed games are tougher to enjoy when they're, you know, rehashes.

    I know that I'm only one person, so your "generally" statement may actually be true. Regardless, I played Shogun, Rome, and Medieval 2 before playing Shogun 2. For its time, I'd say Rome was better than Shogun 2. But if I'm going to pick a game to play right now, it's going to be Shogun 2 every time.
  • SardorimSardorim Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 164
    edited October 2013
    Because Shogun 2 right now is the superior game that runs far smoother and has less headsmashing moments that plague current Rome 2.

    Give Rome 2 time to get patched up and get Mods than it may be the better game.
  • General OdaGeneral Oda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 380
    edited October 2013
    The UI in Shogun 2 is way more intuitive and aesthetically pleasing than Rome 2.
  • XsonicXsonic Member Registered Users Posts: 47
    edited October 2013
    lol check metacritic for rome2, it went down.
  • Tim_WardTim_Ward Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 347
    edited October 2013
    Three reasons Shogun 2 is a better game than Rome 2 (and all the other TW games)

    1) AI
    2) AI
    3) AI

    There are a lot of other things Shogun 2 does well, like the balance or aesthetics and so on, and one thing it really does very poorly (realm divide) but those are the main three reasons Shogun 2 stands head and soldiers above any other TW game.
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    Tim_Ward wrote: »
    Three reasons Shogun 2 is a better game than Rome 2 (and all the other TW games)

    1) AI
    2) AI
    3) AI

    There are a lot of other things Shogun 2 does well, like the balance or aesthetics and so on, and one thing it really does very poorly (realm divide) but those are the main three reasons Shogun 2 stands head and soldiers above any other TW game.

    What's so bad about RD? Imagine the game without it. It adds a nice element to the game to make it more challenging after you've developed your empire. If it weren't there then the steamrolling would get boring. Also, since you know when it will happen, it incentivizes you to really fine tune your economy and military before the dam breaks.

    All this... just my opinion.

    EDIT: This was an off topic post. Sorry about that.
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited October 2013
    What's so bad about RD?

    Everything. It's a half-arsed attempt at making the end-game less of a steam roll. If they'd put some actual effort into it, they could have come up with something better than what's essentially everyone vs you for no apparent reason.

    Perhaps having the Emperor request an invasion of Korea, in which the most powerful faction has to provide the most troops (of course, that'd require them to bother making more units, which they're incapable of doing).

    Instead the game forces you to exterimate everyone in the most blatant form of artificial difficulty ever seen in a game.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • MayorHaggarMayorHaggar Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited October 2013
    I know that I'm only one person, so your "generally" statement may actually be true. Regardless, I played Shogun, Rome, and Medieval 2 before playing Shogun 2. For its time, I'd say Rome was better than Shogun 2. But if I'm going to pick a game to play right now, it's going to be Shogun 2 every time.

    I'd basically agree with that...Rome 1 is still pretty decent for its age, but honestly the battles are pretty simplistic, and stuff like diplomacy is pretty useless. Shogun 2 is definitely a smaller game but everything feels so tight compared to other TW games. Napoleon is my second favorite TW game because it also feels modern compared to older TW games while having a high level of polish similar to Shogun 2. I'd like Nappy better if it felt less scripted--Shogun 2 campaigns are way more unpredictable.
  • AlexeiAlexei Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 13
    edited October 2013
    I actually had more issues with Shogun 2 than Rome 2

    Same PC, bought them both in the same week. Shogun 2 crashes almost constantly, except for in Historical Battles yet Rome 2 has been working so much better.
    May just be me, but still.
  • DoomtrainIncDoomtrainInc Member Registered Users Posts: 49
    edited October 2013
    Shogun plays like a solid game that has polish. Strong themes, intuitive UI, feature rich. Rome 2 is a weak game that is all polish. Good graphics and some new gimmicks. The core gameplay is lacking and not nearly as engaging as S2. I have started a new campaign on each patch R2 has received and not once did my experience come close to any I had playing Shogun.
    System Specs: i7 920 / Radeon HD 7700 / 6GB ram / Win7 64bit
  • DeepjayDeepjay Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 318
    edited October 2013
    I’d say most people around here are history buffs – or more accurately, part of the appeal of these games is the historical element (as opposed to some fantasy kingdom somewhere in Elfland etc). And I would assume that most people like or dislike the titles with a certain bias based on how much they like that particular period of history.

    This is certainly true of me. I am keenly interested in ancient classical history, but also medieval, ancient Chinese, feudal Japanese etc – anything from the crusades through to the mongol invasions. I read a lot about them, both historical fiction and factual recounting, and I find they only enhance the games for me.

    Of all the previous TW games, only really Empire didn’t interest me, but I really liked Napoleon – other than the terrible campaign map performance.

    Shogun 2 was the epitome of a good TW game I think. Whoever said the AI was balls, was right. But it wasn’t game-breakingly bad. While it didn’t burn the doors to castles, and the way the large armies would often hit a castle from multiple sides at once…but at different times…meant it was just a case of having the right units there at the right time – but it was challenging for nothing other than, your stack of ashigaru might come across a stack of Samurai – or you may be outnumbered etc. And the navy ai was horrendous….horrendous! It never EVER attacked you until you approached, and you’d have to run them down as they beelined to the edges of the map – sometimes not even for an escape area – just to some random islet.

    Anyway forgiving the downsides, what made Shogun 2 the absolute epitome of what a good Total War game should be (to me), was the historical detail.

    To explain what I mean – the whole game wreaked of feudal Japan. From the cycling background image on the main menu, to the beautiful hand-drawn art of the loading screens. The tech tree, the agents, the generals, family members – you name it, were all beautifully recreated in an authentic Japanese style. And the haunting Japanese music – the taiko drumming etc.

    Each faction had an introduction movie that properly introduced them to the player – this immediately engaged you to them. Each unit for intro’d for the first time – I know, pointless fluff – but not really – as it all adds to the overall feel the game is portraying.

    The seasons changed – the maps changed accordingly, even little touches like a poem about Spring, or cherry blossoms blowing on the battle maps, little Japanese lanterns etc.

    One thing I love about Rome 2’s new maps is they have more detail in them than ever before. There are so many more little settlements and unnecessary features dotting the landscapes that they look so much more realistic – and I just wish Shogun 2 had this extra level of detail.

    Being quite familiar with Japanese history, it would really make me happy to know my Generals. I would look after someone like Oda Nobunaga and take careful ends to keep him alive. Same with my agents – whose appearances would change as they levelled. I would assign special positions or armies to characters that I cared about, family members or loyal generals. I was engaged.

    In Rome 2 – I have NONE of this. I don’t know who any of my generals are – and they drop like flies, and usually all around the same time. Nothing like having to replace 3-4 agents in one hit as they’ve all died from natural causes suddenly. The army names is a good thing, but the complete detachment from the Generals and Agents – it’s a serious flaw in the game.
    Shogun 2 engaged you. It could infuriate you with cheaty or poor ai – but it recreated feudal Japan as best as it could. This is what we as fans of history want to see.

    When you push all of the core features aside in Rome 2 – it barely scratches the surface – we don’t even have a beautiful background image in the main menu – it’s just Rome. When they say they had 40% more budget, I really question that – or wonder whether it was just blown on pizza. It’s budget that allows companies to go that extra mile – and if Rome 2 had more – then one has to wonder.
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    Deepjay, I couldn't have said it better.
  • FaelixTWFaelixTW Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 133
    edited October 2013
    LSD wrote: »
    Everything. It's a half-arsed attempt at making the end-game less of a steam roll. If they'd put some actual effort into it, they could have come up with something better than what's essentially everyone vs you for no apparent reason.

    Perhaps having the Emperor request an invasion of Korea, in which the most powerful faction has to provide the most troops (of course, that'd require them to bother making more units, which they're incapable of doing).

    Instead the game forces you to exterimate everyone in the most blatant form of artificial difficulty ever seen in a game.

    It boggles my mind, why people of such negativity, think other people want to hear what they have to say. You know you're gonna stay that way for the rest of your life if you don't do something about it right?

    Asides from that, these turn based strategy games have had the problem of the game being beaten way before it's over since...well since Heroes of Might and Magic 3 I guess. I like realms divide, it's a good attempt. And better than your feeble attempt at storytelling which would probably turn out really bad anyway, if you had to do it yourself.
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    @Felix, each person has their opinion... and opinions about opinions. While I agree to an extent with what you're saying, nothing is ever achieved by going after the person.

    @LSD, out of curiosity, why do you spend so much time on the Shogun 2 forum if you don't like the game? Honest question.

    Cheers!
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited October 2013
    @LSD, out of curiosity, why do you spend so much time on the Shogun 2 forum if you don't like the game? Honest question.

    Cheers!

    Because it's a forum for discussing the game -- only since Rome 2, there's been an influx of people claiming the game is some kind of masterpiece (simply because they didn't like Rome 2).
    Claiming it's a masterpiece when almost every aspect of the game is the same (the AI, bugs, graphics, gameplay) or inferior (fleshing+polish, and in many respects, the AI) to its predecessors is ridiculous.
    The only reason you could call Shogun 2 "better" than its predecessors is if you like the time period more than other periods (which even that isn't well fleshed out -- gone are historical event messages, and leaders like Nobunaga, Kagetora and Shingen all look and feel exactly the same -- just like the different factions).

    Maybe the game is better with mods, but vanilla is bland and half-arsed compared to predecessors.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • Kombat_W0MBATKombat_W0MBAT Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited October 2013
    LSD wrote: »
    Because it's a forum for discussing the game -- only since Rome 2, there's been an influx of people claiming the game is some kind of masterpiece (simply because they didn't like Rome 2).
    Claiming it's a masterpiece when almost every aspect of the game is the same (the AI, bugs, graphics, gameplay) or inferior (fleshing+polish, and in many respects, the AI) to its predecessors is ridiculous.
    The only reason you could call Shogun 2 "better" than its predecessors is if you like the time period more than other periods (which even that isn't well fleshed out -- gone are historical event messages, and leaders like Nobunaga, Kagetora and Shingen all look and feel exactly the same -- just like the different factions).

    Maybe the game is better with mods, but vanilla is bland and half-arsed compared to predecessors.

    Fair enough. Perhaps my memory of Shogun 2's predecessors is foggy. The contrast between Rome 2 and Shogun 2 was so stark, that it's hard not to appreciate Shogun 2... and it's easy to overpraise it despite it's faults.
  • easytargeteasytarget Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,432
    edited October 2013
    Shogun 2 is a masterpiece, makes no difference what LSD says, he's one guy, confused as to why he hangs out in a forum for a game he appears to spend only time hating on two years after its release.

    Do yourself a favor like I did and put him on ignore.

    Problem solved.
    This space intentionally left blank.
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